Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
After a few dozen tuning runs, including AT, Logging, and AT100Pro, I have seen no changes in the 20kPA in 750-1000RPM cells;
and I keep all the deltas between runs both front and rear cyls in an excel file.
Just looked through those worksheets, no changes.
I'll have to double check, but I believe my parameters are set at OEM;
I've not tried lowering the parameters in those areas to see if that works.
Mine idles at 30kPA as well.
Just my experience. (caveat: I'm still learning my way around the PV)
and I keep all the deltas between runs both front and rear cyls in an excel file.
Just looked through those worksheets, no changes.
I'll have to double check, but I believe my parameters are set at OEM;
I've not tried lowering the parameters in those areas to see if that works.
Mine idles at 30kPA as well.
Just my experience. (caveat: I'm still learning my way around the PV)
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
The cells in the non-tuned section of the VE table will remain whatever they were when you started. Whatever cell values you had in the map when you started with Autotuning will remain the same after ATing (yet to be confirmed after changing my AT settings, however I don't think the changing settings will alter ATing to this section of the VE tables).
I really can't assist with any advice for older maps that utilize Throttle Position instead of KPa. But even, here my guess is that ATing does not adjust cells in the upper left corner of the VE tables.
This isn't a big deal if your bike idles smoothly and has a "clean" take off. If the bike trips or stumbles at take off or doesn't idle well, then you'll need to go into the VE tables (through WinPV) to make some minor revisions.
The easiest way I found to make these manual revisions was to compare the pre-AT map to the post-AT map in WinPV. By making this comparison, you'll easily see which cells were not revised. What I do is then look at the 1st cell in each column of the post-AT map that the tuning software revised as my starting point.
If the cell just above this first revised cell in each column is a fraction smaller than the revised cell, then you're good to go. If the untuned cell is slightly larger than the tuned cell, I manually make it slightly smaller and take the same step with each cell above.
It's actually a simple process and generally it never even needs to be done if you started with a map that is well suited for your build. The results have been excellent for me with balanced idling and crisp takeoff.
If you're asking me why PV couldn't perform this simple step as a part of the ATing process, I'm clueless. Maybe this would be an improvement in a future upgrade. Or perhaps Jamie can weigh in as to why the ATing software can't tune in this "deadzone"?
I really can't assist with any advice for older maps that utilize Throttle Position instead of KPa. But even, here my guess is that ATing does not adjust cells in the upper left corner of the VE tables.
This isn't a big deal if your bike idles smoothly and has a "clean" take off. If the bike trips or stumbles at take off or doesn't idle well, then you'll need to go into the VE tables (through WinPV) to make some minor revisions.
The easiest way I found to make these manual revisions was to compare the pre-AT map to the post-AT map in WinPV. By making this comparison, you'll easily see which cells were not revised. What I do is then look at the 1st cell in each column of the post-AT map that the tuning software revised as my starting point.
If the cell just above this first revised cell in each column is a fraction smaller than the revised cell, then you're good to go. If the untuned cell is slightly larger than the tuned cell, I manually make it slightly smaller and take the same step with each cell above.
It's actually a simple process and generally it never even needs to be done if you started with a map that is well suited for your build. The results have been excellent for me with balanced idling and crisp takeoff.
If you're asking me why PV couldn't perform this simple step as a part of the ATing process, I'm clueless. Maybe this would be an improvement in a future upgrade. Or perhaps Jamie can weigh in as to why the ATing software can't tune in this "deadzone"?
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I'm confused if you have a PV with WB sensors installed, then you don't have NB sensors. You would then be ATing in Pro mode.
If you "cap" then all cells that were "asking" for a higher VE were "capped" at 127.5. All other cells will be adjusted to meet what they need if the AT revised to a cell value less than 127.5.
If you elected to scale the map, the highest value would be less than 127.5 and all surrounded cells would be "scaled" to better match that lower #.
If you capped and only had a couple cells at 127.5, then leave well enough alone since you're in good shape. If you had a bunch (let's say 6 or more) then you might be better off scaling while you "fix" the situation that's resulting in so many cells reaching 127.5.
Generally the easiest solution to cells hitting 127.5 is to raise the displacement, since your headwork is resulting in an engine that's "breathing" like it was a larger engine.
If you "cap" then all cells that were "asking" for a higher VE were "capped" at 127.5. All other cells will be adjusted to meet what they need if the AT revised to a cell value less than 127.5.
If you elected to scale the map, the highest value would be less than 127.5 and all surrounded cells would be "scaled" to better match that lower #.
If you capped and only had a couple cells at 127.5, then leave well enough alone since you're in good shape. If you had a bunch (let's say 6 or more) then you might be better off scaling while you "fix" the situation that's resulting in so many cells reaching 127.5.
Generally the easiest solution to cells hitting 127.5 is to raise the displacement, since your headwork is resulting in an engine that's "breathing" like it was a larger engine.
The right way to deal with busting the high limit is to use the CDE tables first. EX: if it's a 96" bike then one should use all the available tools/tables to tune it as a 96" bike. If the VE's can be brought down enough by manipulating the egr then it will solve the high limit number AND make the bike run better down low. Kill two birds with one stone. Manipulating the CI's or the injector size should really only be tried after CDE attempts failed. If manipulating the CDE results in enough headroom that's the best way to approach it.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
I like Stailjims idea here and agree that capping at 127.5 and left that way is not the best option. I do have a different way of going about working out that issue than Jim does be it wrong or right it worked well for me.
I chose to cap and save the auto tune file then in winpv I copied over the ve tables to the previous map. I then bumped up the displacement a touch more and ran some more tuning runs. Everything in the high levels settled in around 122 max.
The down side is the low numbers in the low rpm and the low TP columns also dropped. So this is were CDE table come into play. CDE has the largest affect at the lowest map/kpa numbers and tapers off to very small affect around 60kpa. So I adjust UP the CDA tables ran 3 tunes then another tweak to the CDE and 3 more tuning runs. This brought up the low numbers to a much smoother transition to the "midrange" of the map and had just a very very slight affect on the highest numbers that were corrected with the displacement increase.
End result was no drastic valleys or drastic peaks and a very smooth transitioning bike going down the road. Wrong or right it worked well for me.
I spent many many hours over several weeks reading and researching the CDE/EGR table usage and results and everything I found all said that it has very very little affect over 60kpa and the lower the kpa the greater the affect. After experimentation prior to my implementation of the above technique it did work just like the research said it would.
What I ended up with is a displacement at 117ci on my 107 build and increased the CDE tables on front in areas that matched my VE tables a range from 25% to 60% on the numbers that were in the tables. THAT IS NOT raising the CDE those percentages just the numbers in the chart since the setting for that range of adjustment as stated by DJ is 0=0% 256=~2%.
In my case the largest increase to the NUMBER in the CDE table was 62. I didn't do the math to see how much actual percentage increase in the 0-256 range being only a 2% spread but it sure isn't much.
Just throwing out another idea....
Doug
I chose to cap and save the auto tune file then in winpv I copied over the ve tables to the previous map. I then bumped up the displacement a touch more and ran some more tuning runs. Everything in the high levels settled in around 122 max.
The down side is the low numbers in the low rpm and the low TP columns also dropped. So this is were CDE table come into play. CDE has the largest affect at the lowest map/kpa numbers and tapers off to very small affect around 60kpa. So I adjust UP the CDA tables ran 3 tunes then another tweak to the CDE and 3 more tuning runs. This brought up the low numbers to a much smoother transition to the "midrange" of the map and had just a very very slight affect on the highest numbers that were corrected with the displacement increase.
End result was no drastic valleys or drastic peaks and a very smooth transitioning bike going down the road. Wrong or right it worked well for me.
I spent many many hours over several weeks reading and researching the CDE/EGR table usage and results and everything I found all said that it has very very little affect over 60kpa and the lower the kpa the greater the affect. After experimentation prior to my implementation of the above technique it did work just like the research said it would.
What I ended up with is a displacement at 117ci on my 107 build and increased the CDE tables on front in areas that matched my VE tables a range from 25% to 60% on the numbers that were in the tables. THAT IS NOT raising the CDE those percentages just the numbers in the chart since the setting for that range of adjustment as stated by DJ is 0=0% 256=~2%.
In my case the largest increase to the NUMBER in the CDE table was 62. I didn't do the math to see how much actual percentage increase in the 0-256 range being only a 2% spread but it sure isn't much.
Just throwing out another idea....
Doug
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 4
From: Chile Flats, AZ
TP / KPa
No intent to imply that there were no changes in the view to which you were referring, I apologize for any cause of a mistaken inference.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I like Stailjims idea here and agree that capping at 127.5 and left that way is not the best option. I do have a different way of going about working out that issue than Jim does be it wrong or right it worked well for me.
I chose to cap and save the auto tune file then in winpv I copied over the ve tables to the previous map. I then bumped up the displacement a touch more and ran some more tuning runs. Everything in the high levels settled in around 122 max.
The down side is the low numbers in the low rpm and the low TP columns also dropped. So this is were CDE table come into play. CDE has the largest affect at the lowest map/kpa numbers and tapers off to very small affect around 60kpa. So I adjust UP the CDA tables ran 3 tunes then another tweak to the CDE and 3 more tuning runs. This brought up the low numbers to a much smoother transition to the "midrange" of the map and had just a very very slight affect on the highest numbers that were corrected with the displacement increase.
End result was no drastic valleys or drastic peaks and a very smooth transitioning bike going down the road. Wrong or right it worked well for me.
I spent many many hours over several weeks reading and researching the CDE/EGR table usage and results and everything I found all said that it has very very little affect over 60kpa and the lower the kpa the greater the affect. After experimentation prior to my implementation of the above technique it did work just like the research said it would.
What I ended up with is a displacement at 117ci on my 107 build and increased the CDE tables on front in areas that matched my VE tables a range from 25% to 60% on the numbers that were in the tables. THAT IS NOT raising the CDE those percentages just the numbers in the chart since the setting for that range of adjustment as stated by DJ is 0=0% 256=~2%.
In my case the largest increase to the NUMBER in the CDE table was 62. I didn't do the math to see how much actual percentage increase in the 0-256 range being only a 2% spread but it sure isn't much.
Just throwing out another idea....
Doug
I chose to cap and save the auto tune file then in winpv I copied over the ve tables to the previous map. I then bumped up the displacement a touch more and ran some more tuning runs. Everything in the high levels settled in around 122 max.
The down side is the low numbers in the low rpm and the low TP columns also dropped. So this is were CDE table come into play. CDE has the largest affect at the lowest map/kpa numbers and tapers off to very small affect around 60kpa. So I adjust UP the CDA tables ran 3 tunes then another tweak to the CDE and 3 more tuning runs. This brought up the low numbers to a much smoother transition to the "midrange" of the map and had just a very very slight affect on the highest numbers that were corrected with the displacement increase.
End result was no drastic valleys or drastic peaks and a very smooth transitioning bike going down the road. Wrong or right it worked well for me.
I spent many many hours over several weeks reading and researching the CDE/EGR table usage and results and everything I found all said that it has very very little affect over 60kpa and the lower the kpa the greater the affect. After experimentation prior to my implementation of the above technique it did work just like the research said it would.
What I ended up with is a displacement at 117ci on my 107 build and increased the CDE tables on front in areas that matched my VE tables a range from 25% to 60% on the numbers that were in the tables. THAT IS NOT raising the CDE those percentages just the numbers in the chart since the setting for that range of adjustment as stated by DJ is 0=0% 256=~2%.
In my case the largest increase to the NUMBER in the CDE table was 62. I didn't do the math to see how much actual percentage increase in the 0-256 range being only a 2% spread but it sure isn't much.
Just throwing out another idea....
Doug
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
No apology needed.
Cruiser
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 160
Likes: 40
From: San Diego
Log tune questions
I've run several auto tunes with PV and AT-110 and I'm happy with the way my bike is running so would like to periodically run some DATA LOGS on my current tune so I can monitor how things are going and make changes if I need to. I do have the latest software versions of WinPV and PV log tuner however it does not appera that the users guide for log Tuner have been updated, is there a newer one available, couldn't find one on Fuel MOto website. Also I have the Fuel Moto Jackpot Header installed so I will be using both the OEM narrow band sensors and the AT-110 wide band sensors at the same time, by doing this my understanding is that I can do Log Runs using my native MAP. My questions are;
1. Are you still required to enter the unlock pin 319245?
2. What should the hit count be I think default is 5 or 10?
3. I've got two guides for Log Tune (both old, does a newer one exist) and one says to change the PE Enable RPM to a value greater than rev limiter effectively disabling power enrichment. This one really through me for a loop because when i checked this value in the tunes that fuel moto supplied it was set to 5000 rpm, is this only used above 5000 rpm?
Louis
2012 FLHTK
SE COLD AIR INTAKE
JACKPOT HEADER
RINEHART 4 inch slip-ons
1. Are you still required to enter the unlock pin 319245?
2. What should the hit count be I think default is 5 or 10?
3. I've got two guides for Log Tune (both old, does a newer one exist) and one says to change the PE Enable RPM to a value greater than rev limiter effectively disabling power enrichment. This one really through me for a loop because when i checked this value in the tunes that fuel moto supplied it was set to 5000 rpm, is this only used above 5000 rpm?
Louis
2012 FLHTK
SE COLD AIR INTAKE
JACKPOT HEADER
RINEHART 4 inch slip-ons
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Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Monticello Indiana
I've run several auto tunes with PV and AT-110 and I'm happy with the way my bike is running so would like to periodically run some DATA LOGS on my current tune so I can monitor how things are going and make changes if I need to. I do have the latest software versions of WinPV and PV log tuner however it does not appera that the users guide for log Tuner have been updated, is there a newer one available, couldn't find one on Fuel MOto website. Also I have the Fuel Moto Jackpot Header installed so I will be using both the OEM narrow band sensors and the AT-110 wide band sensors at the same time, by doing this my understanding is that I can do Log Runs using my native MAP. My questions are;
1. Are you still required to enter the unlock pin 319245?
2. What should the hit count be I think default is 5 or 10?
3. I've got two guides for Log Tune (both old, does a newer one exist) and one says to change the PE Enable RPM to a value greater than rev limiter effectively disabling power enrichment. This one really through me for a loop because when i checked this value in the tunes that fuel moto supplied it was set to 5000 rpm, is this only used above 5000 rpm?
Louis
2012 FLHTK
SE COLD AIR INTAKE
JACKPOT HEADER
RINEHART 4 inch slip-ons
1. Are you still required to enter the unlock pin 319245?
2. What should the hit count be I think default is 5 or 10?
3. I've got two guides for Log Tune (both old, does a newer one exist) and one says to change the PE Enable RPM to a value greater than rev limiter effectively disabling power enrichment. This one really through me for a loop because when i checked this value in the tunes that fuel moto supplied it was set to 5000 rpm, is this only used above 5000 rpm?
Louis
2012 FLHTK
SE COLD AIR INTAKE
JACKPOT HEADER
RINEHART 4 inch slip-ons
I do choose to keep a fuel map set with several things disabled like PE to do datalog runs and then I use winpv and logtuner software to inspect and or make some changes. This is especially helpful for working on spark timing as autotune removes 4 degrees across the table wich will have the potential to hide spark knock events on ya.
Yes 5000 on PE is default on every map I have worked with, I have done some experimenting with this and my bike like 4500rpm as its kick in point. Every bike will be different on what works best.