Power Vision Information Thread
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
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I had an idea it didn't make changes in the 20 kPa areas. But my bike idles in the 0% column at anywhere from 35 to 38 kPa. If it doesn't tune those areas how are the ve's being set at idle and just off idle? I'm really interested to see what you find. Not every bike idles at the same kPa so I'm curious what happens when a bike idles lower than what the PV can capture. And what's happening during decel. My bike is an 07 with TP and RPM's in the VE table. How do we determine what the actual map kPa is, in say, 950 RPM's and 0% TP to make sure the idle VE's are correct? When we used Brand X we lowered the idle down to 800 to collect data in those areas. I always assumed idle was closed loop and that area would fall within the area that you're saying the PV doesn't tune. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something. Is this different with the PV? I've always had a little bit of low end jerkiness so anything we determine is happening might help me cure it. Thanks for jumping in on this. Always good to pick up little tid bits along the way.
I really can't assist with any advice for older maps that utilize Throttle Position instead of KPa. But even, here my guess is that ATing does not adjust cells in the upper left corner of the VE tables.
This isn't a big deal if your bike idles smoothly and has a "clean" take off. If the bike trips or stumbles at take off or doesn't idle well, then you'll need to go into the VE tables (through WinPV) to make some minor revisions.
The easiest way I found to make these manual revisions was to compare the pre-AT map to the post-AT map in WinPV. By making this comparison, you'll easily see which cells were not revised. What I do is then look at the 1st cell in each column of the post-AT map that the tuning software revised as my starting point.
If the cell just above this first revised cell in each column is a fraction smaller than the revised cell, then you're good to go. If the untuned cell is slightly larger than the tuned cell, I manually make it slightly smaller and take the same step with each cell above.
It's actually a simple process and generally it never even needs to be done if you started with a map that is well suited for your build. The results have been excellent for me with balanced idling and crisp takeoff.
If you're asking me why PV couldn't perform this simple step as a part of the ATing process, I'm clueless. Maybe this would be an improvement in a future upgrade. Or perhaps Jamie can weigh in as to why the ATing software can't tune in this "deadzone"?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Big ol Titties
That's the same thing I noticed. After my first AT run I went back and reviewed the changes in WinPV just to see where I was in the big picture before I did more runs. I had several cells capped in the front and even more on the rear cylinder. Went back a did 5-6 more AT runs over a few days, every time it asked and I selected cap. Once I got my cells under 5% I went back and looked at things in WinPV and I think all I have is one cell on the rear capped now and several are around 125 on the front. I'm thinking that getting the cells around the ones that are capped dialed in probably helps bring down the capped cells. Maybe it doesn't bring them down but stabilizes the area of the map I guess you could say.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
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That's the same thing I noticed. After my first AT run I went back and reviewed the changes in WinPV just to see where I was in the big picture before I did more runs. I had several cells capped in the front and even more on the rear cylinder. Went back a did 5-6 more AT runs over a few days, every time it asked and I selected cap. Once I got my cells under 5% I went back and looked at things in WinPV and I think all I have is one cell on the rear capped now and several are around 125 on the front. I'm thinking that getting the cells around the ones that are capped dialed in probably helps bring down the capped cells. Maybe it doesn't bring them down but stabilizes the area of the map I guess you could say.
There's only a couple ways to address the situation. Raise the displacement to deliver more fuel across the map (which will mean you'll need ATing to pull fuel out of the lower regions) OR REDUCE the "value" size of your injectors which will also deliver more fuel across the map. (Smaller injector "value" means the injector stays open longer and delivers more fuel - small trick). Either way you'll add more fuel to the cells that are being capped but also across the entire map that will then need to be adjusted.
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 871
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From: Manchester, NH
I have captured data in the 30 & 35 kpa at 1000 1225.1500.1750 areas using the default settings. At 1750 rpms 20 kpa is when I start getting data in that area. Of course I was trying to get data in these areas. I don't ride steadily at these rpms, only transition to and through them.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
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From: Colorado
I have captured data in the 30 & 35 kpa at 1000 1225.1500.1750 areas using the default settings. At 1750 rpms 20 kpa is when I start getting data in that area. Of course I was trying to get data in these areas. I don't ride steadily at these rpms, only transition to and through them.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
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Forums are great for getting information but sometimes not accurate. I just went out did an AT on a cal that had been capped. It most certainly did repopulate the upper left cells.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
If you have the parameters set to collect data at 20 KPa it will collect data in that column. It will also collect data in the upper left cells. I just made a run and it made changes. Maybe you have your parameters set to a higher kPa in the AT parameters.
I have mine set to the default at min map 20kPa and min rpm 900.
I changed the AT Settings to lower the minimum rpms from 900 to 750. Lowered the minimum KPa to 10. Raised the max rpm to 6250.
These setting changes had no impact on the upper left corner of the VE tables which remained unchanged when autotuning.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
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From: Colorado
I don't believe this is a PV limitation, but in fact just a place where most engines don't operate much and thus no collections. <1500 and <30 KPa my engine won't hit; maybe if we had a real low pressure move in or something. :-)
Last edited by ColoSpgsMark; Apr 17, 2013 at 09:37 PM.
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 531
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From: Chile Flats, AZ
Upper Left VE Region - No Data Captured
After a few dozen tuning runs, including AT, Logging, and AT100Pro, I have seen no changes in the 20kPA in 750-1000RPM cells;
and I keep all the deltas between runs both front and rear cyls in an excel file.
Just looked through those worksheets, no changes.
I'll have to double check, but I believe my parameters are set at OEM;
I've not tried lowering the parameters in those areas to see if that works.
Mine idles at 30kPA as well.
Just my experience. (caveat: I'm still learning my way around the PV)
and I keep all the deltas between runs both front and rear cyls in an excel file.
Just looked through those worksheets, no changes.
I'll have to double check, but I believe my parameters are set at OEM;
I've not tried lowering the parameters in those areas to see if that works.
Mine idles at 30kPA as well.
Just my experience. (caveat: I'm still learning my way around the PV)
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Road Captain
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 718
Likes: 152
From: Ozarks
Help a dummy please
I think I backed myself into a corner. I have a Power Vision with wide band sensors. I autotuned, exported, flashed new map, autotuned, exported, flashed new map... untill the bike ran flawlessly. (still does at 13.0 AFR) Timing and VE are spot on after about 2 dozen runs.
Now my problem is that when I autotune, powervision sets the AFR at 13.0 The map itself hovers between 14.2 and 14.6 AFR. So when I run the map without auto tune it pings pretty heavily.
How do you autotune the timing without it auto setting the AFR to 13.0 ?
Can you run autotune basic with wideband sensors where it sets the AFR to 14.6.or is that for narrow band sensors only ? I cant find any info on this.
Thanks for any help in advance,
Gozzie
Now my problem is that when I autotune, powervision sets the AFR at 13.0 The map itself hovers between 14.2 and 14.6 AFR. So when I run the map without auto tune it pings pretty heavily.
How do you autotune the timing without it auto setting the AFR to 13.0 ?
Can you run autotune basic with wideband sensors where it sets the AFR to 14.6.or is that for narrow band sensors only ? I cant find any info on this.
Thanks for any help in advance,
Gozzie
Last edited by Gozzie; Apr 18, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I did some autotuning this evening and I stand by my original assessment that the PV AT does not tune cells in the upper left corner of the VE tables. Essentially from 35KPa diagonally across to about 2500 rpm. If you have your PV attached to your handlebar (as I do), you'll see that when you are datalogging with the autotuner running, there will never be any data entered in the first column (10KPa) or the first row (750rpms) or in the upper left corner between 35KPa and 2500rpms.
I changed the AT Settings to lower the minimum rpms from 900 to 750. Lowered the minimum KPa to 10. Raised the max rpm to 6250.
These setting changes had no impact on the upper left corner of the VE tables which remained unchanged when autotuning.
I changed the AT Settings to lower the minimum rpms from 900 to 750. Lowered the minimum KPa to 10. Raised the max rpm to 6250.
These setting changes had no impact on the upper left corner of the VE tables which remained unchanged when autotuning.