Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Just for kicks I messed with this tonight. Entered -2 in the Med & High Load areas. Thought I had a good tune. This made everything a bit snappier and lessened the vibrations. I really wasn't expecting anything performance wise. I think Wurk Turk and stailjim61 have alluded to the principle that sometimes less is more. How low do I dare go?
Last edited by stailjim61; Jun 20, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
So once you get your VE tables right and want to start on timing how do you know what to do? add or remove timing and how much? Do you start by adding a degree or two across the board and look for knock events then take timing away where they occurred
Also curious as the the AFR tables some of you came up with and if you have multiple AFT tables you use
Looking at my Fuel Moto tune ver. the stock tune there were not a lot of changes to the AFR table or the timing tables
Also curious as the the AFR tables some of you came up with and if you have multiple AFT tables you use
Looking at my Fuel Moto tune ver. the stock tune there were not a lot of changes to the AFR table or the timing tables
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Update:
I just recieved a reasuring E-mail from Jamie at FM. It seems I just worry too much.
I have been looking over my logs and it seems most of my knocks while ATing were in the higher MAP/Kpa columns at lower RPM's, Trying to fill in all the cells in the upper right corner.Hell, I never ride like that, We all know the best way to gain 10 HP is to downshift. So I will try the quicktune approach to the vibration I feel but can't see in the logs. Then manually adjust the spark tables after settling on how much and where to reduce. Thanks for all your input.
Here's Jamies reply,
Hello, the AT and general logging are both reading back the same info off the data bus. If you have added timing and you are getting some spark knock you are going to need to go back the other way. You are not going to damage anything as long as you are not getting massive detonation and are forcibly running the motor under load, if the knock control is pulling timing within its limits that is going to be normal operation. On a well tuned bike is will be common to get some small knock events here and there, again as long as they are within what the system can control.
Thank you.........Jamie
I just recieved a reasuring E-mail from Jamie at FM. It seems I just worry too much.
I have been looking over my logs and it seems most of my knocks while ATing were in the higher MAP/Kpa columns at lower RPM's, Trying to fill in all the cells in the upper right corner.Hell, I never ride like that, We all know the best way to gain 10 HP is to downshift. So I will try the quicktune approach to the vibration I feel but can't see in the logs. Then manually adjust the spark tables after settling on how much and where to reduce. Thanks for all your input.
Here's Jamies reply,
Hello, the AT and general logging are both reading back the same info off the data bus. If you have added timing and you are getting some spark knock you are going to need to go back the other way. You are not going to damage anything as long as you are not getting massive detonation and are forcibly running the motor under load, if the knock control is pulling timing within its limits that is going to be normal operation. On a well tuned bike is will be common to get some small knock events here and there, again as long as they are within what the system can control.
Thank you.........Jamie
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I suppose if someone was hellbent on playing with the CDE tables they could make a datlog run logging the CLI's. Then make the CDE changes and AT it. Then do another data log run and check the CLI's again AFTER the VE's were changed via CDE manipulation. Graph may look sweet but if the CLI's are way out of whack then those spikes and valleys may be what the engine really needs and likes.
If the CLI's are staying within 4 or 5% WITH the spikes and valleys I wouldn't even mess around with the CDE numbers.
Last edited by stailjim61; Jun 20, 2013 at 08:04 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 401
Likes: 22
From: Lebanon, Pa
stailjim61
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 871
Likes: 7
From: Manchester, NH
stailjim61
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
If you were able to graph the VE from a datalog run now and compare it to the VE from the same cal that has a 1,000 miles on it, you would see the changes that have taken place - or put another way - the changes made as a result of the EMC "learning".
My cal from the AT is what my engine wanted to run within the parameters set by the AT process. I left the VEs alone (no smoothing) once the delta was stable. Then took the bike on a 3,000 mile road trip and it performed flawlessly with power and fuel economy, as well as I could expect from a 1200 pound trike.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
stailjim61
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
I did not mess with the CDE tables at all. My first few auto tune runs resulted in peaks and valleys. What I did was highlight the whole map and said to smooth it. then I did several more AT runs and have a map that does not have many peaks and valleys not smooth but not rough either. After smoothing the whole map and re running AT I have an average change of 1% and maybe a max of 6% if I hit a cell I had not hit on the other runs.
Might not have been the right way to do it but so far it has worked for me.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Your calibration, though it may look pleasing to your eye, is not set in stone unless you have disabled Adaptive Control and/or Closed Loop. As you ride the VEs will change due to the AFF learning and adapting to what the ECM demands (in closed loop). The delta you see is only based on the change between two static maps. I would be willing to state that over time your cal will develop the peaks and valleys you attempted to eliminate via smoothing.
If you were able to graph the VE from a datalog run now and compare it to the VE from the same cal that has a 1,000 miles on it, you would see the changes that have taken place - or put another way - the changes made as a result of the EMC "learning".
My cal from the AT is what my engine wanted to run within the parameters set by the AT process. I left the VEs alone (no smoothing) once the delta was stable. Then took the bike on a 3,000 mile road trip and it performed flawlessly with power and fuel economy, as well as I could expect from a 1200 pound trike.
If you were able to graph the VE from a datalog run now and compare it to the VE from the same cal that has a 1,000 miles on it, you would see the changes that have taken place - or put another way - the changes made as a result of the EMC "learning".
My cal from the AT is what my engine wanted to run within the parameters set by the AT process. I left the VEs alone (no smoothing) once the delta was stable. Then took the bike on a 3,000 mile road trip and it performed flawlessly with power and fuel economy, as well as I could expect from a 1200 pound trike.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 401
Likes: 22
From: Lebanon, Pa
stailjim61
That is what I did I only smoothed the whole table 1 time and that was it. then I ran several more 4-5 AT runs and have not touched them since the last run. There are some peaks and valleys but not drastic at all. I probably even ran more AT runs then I needed to.
I would really like to understand making timing changes and how to know if what I am doing is working( seat of the pants)
That is what I did I only smoothed the whole table 1 time and that was it. then I ran several more 4-5 AT runs and have not touched them since the last run. There are some peaks and valleys but not drastic at all. I probably even ran more AT runs then I needed to.
I would really like to understand making timing changes and how to know if what I am doing is working( seat of the pants)