Power Vision Information Thread
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,378
Likes: 2
From: Macon, GA USA
After much research I am going to get the autotune on my 02 Ultra rig when I can afford it. A good friend of mine gave me a all most new looking header pipe with heat shields with bungee for the 02 sensor’s. I am slowly colleting parts to do my motor. I do all my own work including machine work. Hopefully by the end of the year I will be doing twin cam pressed cranks.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I did the same thing to you and thought I had an aggressive timing until I saw this post
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...31-pv-map.html
I downloaded the map and looked at the timing table, it looks pretty sweet, definitely very aggressive and the graph definitely looks very very smooth without peaks and valleys, after seeing this my previous timing table looks weak with lots of peaks and valleys.....I copy and pasted the timing table to my map just an hour ago and planning to test it out tomorrow. I think this timing table will be a very good baseline to fine tune with log tuner....
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...31-pv-map.html
I downloaded the map and looked at the timing table, it looks pretty sweet, definitely very aggressive and the graph definitely looks very very smooth without peaks and valleys, after seeing this my previous timing table looks weak with lots of peaks and valleys.....I copy and pasted the timing table to my map just an hour ago and planning to test it out tomorrow. I think this timing table will be a very good baseline to fine tune with log tuner....
Well so much for thinking my engine couldn't be made better. On a whim I decided to create a new map using all my settings and my latest autotuned VEs but with the timing from the map above.
My spark tables were less aggressive in some places and more aggressive in other areas. In general the other big difference was the seamless and smooth transition of spark from one section of the map to another in the map above.
Well after all the autotuning I've done, this one single map change transformed my bike from running strong and sharp to making it utterly rip through the gears as if it wanted to tear the bike out from under me. I've done some additional autotuning on the new map with these new spark tables and its now, remarkably the best I could imagine my engine build could run.
The only last step I'd like to do is run the Log Tuner to check for any knock events. Unfortunately after upgrading the PV firmware and upgraded WINPV, the Log tuner no longer functions with datalogging collected from the PV. I understand the DynoJet software engineers are working on the issue and hope they release a new version of the log tuner soon. For now, I'm just really enjoying the new ripping power of the bike. Now with 38,000miles my bike feels like it has an engine that has been significantly bumped up in low and high end power. What a pleasure!
Does anyone know how this spark table was created? It appears as though it was done by a computer given the many cells that have spark advance values with fractions.
Last edited by Heatwave; Oct 18, 2013 at 06:54 PM.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Thanks oldhippie for the condensed version.
I did start with the dynojet map that was closest to my setup and did about 10 auto tune sessions to get the VE's dialed in. I smoothed out some hot spots in the VE's during the sessions. Then I have been using log tuner to tweak the timing. I have been adding timing and watching where it pulls timing back out. Maybe it is the cold weather mixed with the premium fuel but I have never heard and pinging and I am pushing 54 degrees timing in some areas and it is not pulling any out of those areas yet. I am afraid I am getting too high and am cautious about adding any more timing. So far the bike likes it and temps are going down, throttle response is up, mileage is up and the handle bars are still smooth.
Yes this giant thread is out of control. I have been copying and pasting the relevant things I have found into a document but it is up to 8 pages now and also getting out of control.
There is a lot to learn here and I am working my way through it. I wish I had started a month earlier as it is only getting up to the 50's in the day now.
I did start with the dynojet map that was closest to my setup and did about 10 auto tune sessions to get the VE's dialed in. I smoothed out some hot spots in the VE's during the sessions. Then I have been using log tuner to tweak the timing. I have been adding timing and watching where it pulls timing back out. Maybe it is the cold weather mixed with the premium fuel but I have never heard and pinging and I am pushing 54 degrees timing in some areas and it is not pulling any out of those areas yet. I am afraid I am getting too high and am cautious about adding any more timing. So far the bike likes it and temps are going down, throttle response is up, mileage is up and the handle bars are still smooth.
Yes this giant thread is out of control. I have been copying and pasting the relevant things I have found into a document but it is up to 8 pages now and also getting out of control.
There is a lot to learn here and I am working my way through it. I wish I had started a month earlier as it is only getting up to the 50's in the day now.
Please post pictures of your two timing tables. I'm curious where you're running 54 degrees.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Quite possibly accomplished on a dyno by a tuner that knows what he's doing and took the time to get it right.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 289
Likes: 9
From: Iowa
54 degrees? Tell me you're kidding. There is no area that any big twin needs 54 degrees of timing. You're asking for trouble. I wouldn't be running anything higher than 43 at any point in your map. Remember you'll see that the bike will tolerate high numbers in the low rpm and low loead areas, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
Please post pictures of your two timing tables. I'm curious where you're running 54 degrees.
Please post pictures of your two timing tables. I'm curious where you're running 54 degrees.
This map started out as dynojet tune 11D096002301.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Maybe you should look at the tables before suggesting a tuner could develop a table like that one. There's no tuner on the planet that can tune a spark table to 10ths and 100ths of a degree. Not gonna happen. It was clearly done by a computer that can make those types of smoothing calculations.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Maybe you should look at the tables before suggesting a tuner could develop a table like that one. There's no tuner on the planet that can tune a spark table to 10ths and 100ths of a degree. Not gonna happen. It was clearly done by a computer that can make those types of smoothing calculations.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
One thing to remember about timing. Without having thousands of dollars worth of equipment to find the peak efficient timing number(s) it's easy to get into trouble playing with timing tables. The smartest thing anyone can do, when tuning in the garage, is to play it safe. Find out where it likes to ping, tweak, and build in a safety zone to your table.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Maybe you should learn a little about tuning before suggesting something can and cannot be done. There is no computer program that can develop a timing table...period. At best it will be a starting point. Have a look at a timing map and it's easy to see that thenths and hundreds can be input. Log Tuner will tune to two decimal points. That alone says your assumtion is flawed. There are way too many variables specific to each bike and the environment for a computer program to build a timing table. Might get close enough but surely not tuned. If what you're assuming is correct then one would be able to receive 100% spot on perfect timing tables from retailers. Not gonna happen, as you put it. It's obvious that you haven't been paying attention to any of the timing threads, or built a motor, or tuned many bikes. I give you credit for trying to defend your position but it simply doesn't pass the sniff test.
While a spark table may originate from a dyno tune, no dyno-tuned spark table comes with fractions. No tuner is that precise is setting spark advance. As the OP confirmed "The reason for the fractional extensions is I use the Smooth function in PV and it compares each cell to the adjacent cell and makes changes to get them linear." That's exactly the position I stated and it needs no defending as the OP confirmed that's how the table referenced above was created.
He had taken pre-established spark tables from another source (perhaps a dyno-tuned map or a factory map) and highly modified it. After modifying it he then used the PowerVision (WinPV) application to smooth the advance in each cell. The outcome from the modifications and computer smoothing made for an excellent outcome and one that was finished on a computer, not a dyno tune.
The factory or dyno tuned spark tables were only the starting point and the computer was the final touches. Having done significant tuning with SEPST and DynoJet Powervision, there is no way to "start" by using the computer and then finish with a dyno tune. Other way around. Start with a good spark table and refine it on the computer as the OP did.
The outcome was an excellent one from my perspective.