Power Vision Information Thread
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
On the other hand, maybe there's a technical reason they just can't go there that I just don't understand. But if that were the case, why stop support for Log Tuner?
It would be nice to get a little clarification on this issue.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
stailjim61, you were right.
I ended up with the baffles from the SE's in the V&H cans since they were the same diameter and the V&H's are in better condition.
It tuned up a lot better and after 4 AT runs there was only 3% change.
Those open V&H baffles lost a lot of low end torque. It is now running a lot smoother and cooler. I haven't heard the misfire yet.
I think I will open loop it here for now. Should I do it by selecting the area of 14.6 AF's and reducing it to 14.2? Suggestions?
I ended up with the baffles from the SE's in the V&H cans since they were the same diameter and the V&H's are in better condition.
It tuned up a lot better and after 4 AT runs there was only 3% change.
Those open V&H baffles lost a lot of low end torque. It is now running a lot smoother and cooler. I haven't heard the misfire yet.
I think I will open loop it here for now. Should I do it by selecting the area of 14.6 AF's and reducing it to 14.2? Suggestions?
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I have a map from Jammie and after auto tuning runs pretty well, but after reading about air fuel ratio I was wondering about the large area in my map set to 14.5, I have read that for best performance and torque it's better to be down in the lower 13s. So I made a map and replaced the 14.5 with 13.8 and the bike did seem to have more pep. So the question is I don't want to kill my gas mileage but would like the extra pep, so could just changing the acceleration enrichment give it the pep without killing the millage ?
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Its likely your type exhaust system as long as your sensors are not reversed or damaged in anyway is rear cylinder spark plug wire good?. If you think it all checks out good mechanically you have to manually adjust those bad VE spots same thing happen to me with a set of V&H big shot duals.
What I did was let the VEs auto adjust that seem ok and stabilized and the areas that were unstable and going down by 20 that's the same that was happing to me. I manually raised the VEs back up and used the smoothing in winpv. I got my bike running ok. But when I changed exhaust systems the auto tune was like night and day I could see right off first couple runs the VEs and how much more stable they seem to be.
What I did was let the VEs auto adjust that seem ok and stabilized and the areas that were unstable and going down by 20 that's the same that was happing to me. I manually raised the VEs back up and used the smoothing in winpv. I got my bike running ok. But when I changed exhaust systems the auto tune was like night and day I could see right off first couple runs the VEs and how much more stable they seem to be.
Stage III
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: canton, mi.
You can't get blood from a turnip. An engine will only do what it's set up to do, no more. Lower 13's is too rich and I'm willing to bet it will feel sluggish. But every bike is different. I would be asking why you received a cal with 14.5 in the AFR. I'm sure he has a reason. Without knowing the bike, year, mods, etc I can't answer you. But still interested in hearing why 14.5 was the magic number they used.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 14
From: Seattle
You can't get blood from a turnip. An engine will only do what it's set up to do, no more. Lower 13's is too rich and I'm willing to bet it will feel sluggish. But every bike is different. I would be asking why you received a cal with 14.5 in the AFR. I'm sure he has a reason. Without knowing the bike, year, mods, etc I can't answer you. But still interested in hearing why 14.5 was the magic number they used.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,858
Likes: 217
From: Puyallup Wa.
I have a strong suspicion that this is a matter of priorities at Dynajet, where they are not staffing up to develop new functionality as they are so busy using current development headcount to keep-up with changes in motorcycle platforms on a yearly basis.
On the other hand, maybe there's a technical reason they just can't go there that I just don't understand. But if that were the case, why stop support for Log Tuner?
It would be nice to get a little clarification on this issue.
On the other hand, maybe there's a technical reason they just can't go there that I just don't understand. But if that were the case, why stop support for Log Tuner?
It would be nice to get a little clarification on this issue.
Simple in my mind. They want to sell auto tune pros......... We had log tuner figured out and how to do timing with basic its described way in back in this thread. Even one of dynojet guys confirmed it. It was so simple. Log tuner only cared about what AFR you said you data logged not what you actually data logged. What I don't understand is why more did not figure this out. I am not talking about doing VEs this way to be clear I am talking about timing here and running log through log tuner.
My other thoughts on dynojet ******* log tuner is to try and get away from using the computer. IMO they made a bad move and should of left the door open in a way they dumbed it down. But lets be honest people want to put it on bike make a few runs and call it a day and dynojet tried to meet that.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 115
Likes: 2
From: FL/CO
Can anyone summarize the PV process?
I recently got the PV to go along with cams, exhaust, intake. I really just wanted to do the mods, throw on the PV with a base tune, run some ATs and call it a day. I have enough hobbies, and really didn't want to get deep into it. But as I fiddled with it, of course, curiosity sets in and I'd like to understand more. I know that every tuner has his own way to use this tool, but I would love to find an article that outlines a generally accepted sequence to follow. There are thousands of posts in this thread alone, and many others out there, and the tidbits are all in there...if you read for a few weeks and try to sort it out. I understand running ATs until your VE deltas get down below 3-5. Then I've seen tweak the fuel tables before moving on the spark adjustments. Beyond that I'm lost.
For guys that do this on a regular basis there has to be a sequence they approach the tune with. What clues are you looking at along the way to indicate areas that need work? For example when you say get the fuel squared away...when you look at the VE tables exactly what are you looking at/for? I know there are a lot of moving parts here that are interrelated, and it gets to be more of an art than a science, but there must be a method to the madness that provides some underlying structure.
Can anyone point me towards a good write up, I'm not finding one.
Thanks
For guys that do this on a regular basis there has to be a sequence they approach the tune with. What clues are you looking at along the way to indicate areas that need work? For example when you say get the fuel squared away...when you look at the VE tables exactly what are you looking at/for? I know there are a lot of moving parts here that are interrelated, and it gets to be more of an art than a science, but there must be a method to the madness that provides some underlying structure.
Can anyone point me towards a good write up, I'm not finding one.
Thanks
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
Simple in my mind. They want to sell auto tune pros......... We had log tuner figured out and how to do timing with basic its described way in back in this thread. Even one of dynojet guys confirmed it. It was so simple. Log tuner only cared about what AFR you said you data logged not what you actually data logged. What I don't understand is why more did not figure this out. I am not talking about doing VEs this way to be clear I am talking about timing here and running log through log tuner.
My other thoughts on dynojet ******* log tuner is to try and get away from using the computer. IMO they made a bad move and should of left the door open in a way they dumbed it down. But lets be honest people want to put it on bike make a few runs and call it a day and dynojet tried to meet that.
My other thoughts on dynojet ******* log tuner is to try and get away from using the computer. IMO they made a bad move and should of left the door open in a way they dumbed it down. But lets be honest people want to put it on bike make a few runs and call it a day and dynojet tried to meet that.
Log tuner is bulky and with fraught with possibilities for human error. Seems like it would have been an opportunity to add value, but..I'm just guessing.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,670
Likes: 139
From: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
I didn't find this anywhere in previous searches on CDE and IVO for PV. If it's duplicate information, my apologies.
got this from an engineer at DJ today.
"The IVC and IVO fields are in the tune, but not available in public releases of our software at this time."
"In regards to the CDE (or EGR effect), theres no doubt that depending on the combination of parts, like exhaust, but more so cam shaft design has an effect on the air and fuel charge in the engine.. The air mass and fuel mass that should be occupying a certain percent of the engine volume is actually being displaced by EGR to some extent, and the ECM needs to know about this charge dilution. Adjusting the CDE is tedious and time consuming, but it seems to help with transient fueling and leads to better response in those areas it affects ..which is below 60 Kpa.
We dont have any new tools or information on the Charge Dilution Effect / EGR effect at this time. I hope to have some of the logic and math involved explained to me (from our engineers) in the very near future (See below). With a better understanding of the underlying strategy, I believe well be able to use this calibration item more effectively to level out / smooth the VE surface below 60kpa.
Like I said, its tedious and time consuming. If you adjust the CDE, then you need to go and re-tune the VE values below 60kpa. If you just tune the VE in the first place, and then manually fill-in / blend various areas, I think thats OK ..although a calibration engineer may disagree. This gets the job done and taking the time to adjust the CDE *may* lead to some perceptible change in rider feel (ie. potentially a touch more torque), but its not a difference thats easily identified (without a dyno and various instrumentation)..
Engineering notes:
Values in the CDE functions:
0 = 0%
256 = approx 2%
Anyway, very roughly, if you were at 50KPA and the table was set to 2%, then it would assume (60-50)*2%=20% of the charge was from EGR.
So, Im not an engineer or an expert, but heres my take on all of this. Assume you tuned a bike with an aftermarket cam that had a fair bit of overlap, and the thus the potential to dilute your intake charge with EGR at low loads, for instance less than 60 KPA. OK, so you tune the bike using stock values that were derived from an OEM calibration engineer for the stock cam, and the you notice, wow, my VE surface below 60 KPA looks a little choppy. You want to knock down or fill in some of the high and low spots, so you increase or decrease the values in the CDE tables accordingly.
Picture, this the throttle is partially closed, vacuum is relative high and KPA / MAP load is relatively low (below 60 KPA). EGR present in the combustion chamber results in a richer AFR without the ECM injecting more fuel. How? well, the EGR is displacing oxygen and thus with the same amount of fuel delivered by the ECM, the resultant AFR is richer. You could also look at this if EGR is present in some appreciable amount, then the ECM needs to make adjustments, because at this time the engines volume or size is smaller. To qualify smaller you must look at the equation to determine the VE of an internal combustion engine, and after all the math you end up with an injection time requirement to achieve a desired AFR. Again, if the cylinder has some amount of EGR in it, then it will run richer with all other things the same, so the calculation I just mentioned results in error. We need a way to adjust this, and thats what CDE does. A Harley doesnt have an EGR valve to control and if it did, the ECM would know its position / relative flow and make adjustments to the calibration. Changing the amount of EGR that gets into the cylinders by way of a cam change (regardless if you have an EGR valve), we can use the CDE tables as sort of an EGR position / relative flow in regards to how the ECM compensates for this condition."
got this from an engineer at DJ today.
"The IVC and IVO fields are in the tune, but not available in public releases of our software at this time."
"In regards to the CDE (or EGR effect), theres no doubt that depending on the combination of parts, like exhaust, but more so cam shaft design has an effect on the air and fuel charge in the engine.. The air mass and fuel mass that should be occupying a certain percent of the engine volume is actually being displaced by EGR to some extent, and the ECM needs to know about this charge dilution. Adjusting the CDE is tedious and time consuming, but it seems to help with transient fueling and leads to better response in those areas it affects ..which is below 60 Kpa.
We dont have any new tools or information on the Charge Dilution Effect / EGR effect at this time. I hope to have some of the logic and math involved explained to me (from our engineers) in the very near future (See below). With a better understanding of the underlying strategy, I believe well be able to use this calibration item more effectively to level out / smooth the VE surface below 60kpa.
Like I said, its tedious and time consuming. If you adjust the CDE, then you need to go and re-tune the VE values below 60kpa. If you just tune the VE in the first place, and then manually fill-in / blend various areas, I think thats OK ..although a calibration engineer may disagree. This gets the job done and taking the time to adjust the CDE *may* lead to some perceptible change in rider feel (ie. potentially a touch more torque), but its not a difference thats easily identified (without a dyno and various instrumentation)..
Engineering notes:
Values in the CDE functions:
0 = 0%
256 = approx 2%
Anyway, very roughly, if you were at 50KPA and the table was set to 2%, then it would assume (60-50)*2%=20% of the charge was from EGR.
So, Im not an engineer or an expert, but heres my take on all of this. Assume you tuned a bike with an aftermarket cam that had a fair bit of overlap, and the thus the potential to dilute your intake charge with EGR at low loads, for instance less than 60 KPA. OK, so you tune the bike using stock values that were derived from an OEM calibration engineer for the stock cam, and the you notice, wow, my VE surface below 60 KPA looks a little choppy. You want to knock down or fill in some of the high and low spots, so you increase or decrease the values in the CDE tables accordingly.
Picture, this the throttle is partially closed, vacuum is relative high and KPA / MAP load is relatively low (below 60 KPA). EGR present in the combustion chamber results in a richer AFR without the ECM injecting more fuel. How? well, the EGR is displacing oxygen and thus with the same amount of fuel delivered by the ECM, the resultant AFR is richer. You could also look at this if EGR is present in some appreciable amount, then the ECM needs to make adjustments, because at this time the engines volume or size is smaller. To qualify smaller you must look at the equation to determine the VE of an internal combustion engine, and after all the math you end up with an injection time requirement to achieve a desired AFR. Again, if the cylinder has some amount of EGR in it, then it will run richer with all other things the same, so the calculation I just mentioned results in error. We need a way to adjust this, and thats what CDE does. A Harley doesnt have an EGR valve to control and if it did, the ECM would know its position / relative flow and make adjustments to the calibration. Changing the amount of EGR that gets into the cylinders by way of a cam change (regardless if you have an EGR valve), we can use the CDE tables as sort of an EGR position / relative flow in regards to how the ECM compensates for this condition."