Power Vision Information Thread
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
See all my current tables I posted below. The VEs and spark tables I posted are the comparisons to stock.
I've been running all open loop. I replaced both my O2 sensors, saw almost no change, but at least I ruled them out. My VEs are based on stock but tweaked manually using the AT results as a guide, spark plug readings, and performance, manually enriching important areas like WOT and areas where I get consistent knocking. I've spent a lot of time with my spark tables trying to get rid of all knocking, but it seems no matter what I do there is no way to get rid of all of them. I'm at the point I think I'm gonna just leave it where it is and let knock detection retard if and when it needs to. I don't want to retard my tables any more than I already have.
I still think that my knocking is mostly due to the very high levels of carbon buildup on the tops of my pistons that I posted borescope pics of a while back. Still haven't figured out why I have such bad deposits on a low mileage engine, but I plan on rerouting my crankcase vapors to outside the intake very soon.
I've been running all open loop. I replaced both my O2 sensors, saw almost no change, but at least I ruled them out. My VEs are based on stock but tweaked manually using the AT results as a guide, spark plug readings, and performance, manually enriching important areas like WOT and areas where I get consistent knocking. I've spent a lot of time with my spark tables trying to get rid of all knocking, but it seems no matter what I do there is no way to get rid of all of them. I'm at the point I think I'm gonna just leave it where it is and let knock detection retard if and when it needs to. I don't want to retard my tables any more than I already have.
I still think that my knocking is mostly due to the very high levels of carbon buildup on the tops of my pistons that I posted borescope pics of a while back. Still haven't figured out why I have such bad deposits on a low mileage engine, but I plan on rerouting my crankcase vapors to outside the intake very soon.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
See all my current tables I posted below. The VEs and spark tables I posted are the comparisons to stock.
I've been running all open loop. I replaced both my O2 sensors, saw almost no change, but at least I ruled them out. My VEs are based on stock but tweaked manually using the AT results as a guide, spark plug readings, and performance, manually enriching important areas like WOT and areas where I get consistent knocking. I've spent a lot of time with my spark tables trying to get rid of all knocking, but it seems no matter what I do there is no way to get rid of all of them. I'm at the point I think I'm gonna just leave it where it is and let knock detection retard if and when it needs to. I don't want to retard my tables any more than I already have.
I still think that my knocking is mostly due to the very high levels of carbon buildup on the tops of my pistons that I posted borescope pics of a while back. Still haven't figured out why I have such bad deposits on a low mileage engine, but I plan on rerouting my crankcase vapors to outside the intake very soon.
I've been running all open loop. I replaced both my O2 sensors, saw almost no change, but at least I ruled them out. My VEs are based on stock but tweaked manually using the AT results as a guide, spark plug readings, and performance, manually enriching important areas like WOT and areas where I get consistent knocking. I've spent a lot of time with my spark tables trying to get rid of all knocking, but it seems no matter what I do there is no way to get rid of all of them. I'm at the point I think I'm gonna just leave it where it is and let knock detection retard if and when it needs to. I don't want to retard my tables any more than I already have.
I still think that my knocking is mostly due to the very high levels of carbon buildup on the tops of my pistons that I posted borescope pics of a while back. Still haven't figured out why I have such bad deposits on a low mileage engine, but I plan on rerouting my crankcase vapors to outside the intake very soon.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
An Example would be my rear cylinder, the ecm will pull -5 degrees of timing at 58kpa 2800 rpm so that's the area that I hit (50kpa 2750rpm). I'll blend the surrounding areas by a few degrees just for a smooth transition.
Looking at your deltas you seem to be blanketing whole entire areas.
If you go back a few pages you can download the tune I'm working with, not to use (unless you want to) but to give you an idea on what I did with the timing.
Here's the current tune I'm using now https://www.dropbox.com/s/kkosgfpjbt...91514.pvt?dl=0
I still have some adjustments to make but it's just about finished.
Last edited by JustDave13; Sep 26, 2014 at 08:14 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 848
Likes: 30
From: CO
I was looking at your deltas, you're pulling timing in a very wide area, when I pull timing for pings I do it in a very precise area, usually right before where the ping took place.
An Example would be my rear cylinder, the ecm will pull -5 degrees of timing at 58kpa 2800 rpm so that's the area that I hit (50kpa 2750rpm). I'll blend the surrounding areas by a few degrees just for a smooth transition.
Looking at your deltas you seem to be blanketing whole entire areas.
If you go back a few pages you can download the tune I'm working with, not to use (unless you want to) but to give you an idea on what I did with the timing.
Here's the current tune I'm using now https://www.dropbox.com/s/kkosgfpjbt...91514.pvt?dl=0
I still have some adjustments to make but it's just about finished.
An Example would be my rear cylinder, the ecm will pull -5 degrees of timing at 58kpa 2800 rpm so that's the area that I hit (50kpa 2750rpm). I'll blend the surrounding areas by a few degrees just for a smooth transition.
Looking at your deltas you seem to be blanketing whole entire areas.
If you go back a few pages you can download the tune I'm working with, not to use (unless you want to) but to give you an idea on what I did with the timing.
Here's the current tune I'm using now https://www.dropbox.com/s/kkosgfpjbt...91514.pvt?dl=0
I still have some adjustments to make but it's just about finished.
However, I didn't like the idea of having to keep the entire table retarded, so I started slowly bringing timing back up to stock in all the areas that I knew were safe. And then had to retard a little more in the trouble areas and got to where it is now. I still have a few very light, mostly inaudible knocks, but I think I'm willing to live with it where it is. If they happen, the ECU will retard where necessary during that ride and usually prevent further events. The next ride it might not happen at all. Depends on all the variables.
But trust me, I'm very familiar with reading the logs.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 848
Likes: 30
From: CO
Post the spark tables that you say knock. That will tell the story. Comparing anything to the OEM tables is like pissing in the wind and trying to see the wet spot. Like I said before...the OEM tables are NOT a comparison. But you continue to use them as a basis of comparison. I guess the real question is did the engine ping, as bad as you say it does now, before you started making changes? I'm sure if was pinging this bad, in stock out of the box form, you would have heard it.....correct? You're at what, 750 feet? Obviously higher compression. Obviously lower timing tolerance than higher elevation cals. There's more to this than "I compared MY tables to the OEM tables". Or, "I compared My tables to the cal the vendor sent me". Geez, even 2 identical engines, from your same neighborhood, will stack up different and yield the same VE's. Find a tuner in ATX and have a peek at their timing tables. Better yet, just let them tune it for you and save yourself the aggravation of all this guessing and invalid comparisons. Bike might even run sweet when they're finished. This tuning business isn't for everyone. Some folks just don't "get it". Nothing to be ashamed about. Just let a pro fix you up and ride on.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
Ah, I understand. So I have tried your method, a lot. I would retard at the exact trouble cell and blend slightly into the surrounding cells until I had a lot of retarded areas converging all over the table. And I was still having knocking, almost like none of the changes were having any effect. So I had a thought...since the PV retards the entire table 4 degrees when we do AT runs and it never knocks, why not try that....so I retarded the entire table on both cylinders by 2 degrees. Suddenly I got a lot less knocks, and here's the kicker...I had previously retarded the trouble areas as much as 4 degrees and still got knocks but retarding the WHOLE table by just 2 degrees almost got rid of ALL knocks.
However, I didn't like the idea of having to keep the entire table retarded, so I started slowly bringing timing back up to stock in all the areas that I knew were safe. And then had to retard a little more in the trouble areas and got to where it is now. I still have a few very light, mostly inaudible knocks, but I think I'm willing to live with it where it is. If they happen, the ECU will retard where necessary during that ride and usually prevent further events. The next ride it might not happen at all. Depends on all the variables.
But trust me, I'm very familiar with reading the logs.
However, I didn't like the idea of having to keep the entire table retarded, so I started slowly bringing timing back up to stock in all the areas that I knew were safe. And then had to retard a little more in the trouble areas and got to where it is now. I still have a few very light, mostly inaudible knocks, but I think I'm willing to live with it where it is. If they happen, the ECU will retard where necessary during that ride and usually prevent further events. The next ride it might not happen at all. Depends on all the variables.
But trust me, I'm very familiar with reading the logs.
I added about 3 degrees over stock and pulled back where needed, same idea as yours and I'm not to concerned with how far from stock the table ends up, it's more or less what the bike likes.
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Eastern Oregon
Thought I would post this since it contradicts alot of what some people have posted on here. Got this in an Email from Jamie Long at Fuel Moto...
"Hello, on 14-15 CANbus ECM the knock retard channel does not report individual knock events as with earlier bikes, it reports what the ECM is doing collectively with adaptive knock retard. We do not generally use AT for timing on these models, some knock activity is common and the 14-15 bikes are hyper sensitive to knock, so if you remove it you will end up with less than ideal performance. Unless you are getting large retard events I would not remove timing.
--
Thank you........Jamie Long"
This accounts for the slight drop in performance I felt after retarding some timing and misreading the log file. It doesn't report knocking on my 14, just what the adaptive knock retard is doing! (and the light comes on) No wonder everything I did made it worse. All timing back to original file from FuelMoto
"Hello, on 14-15 CANbus ECM the knock retard channel does not report individual knock events as with earlier bikes, it reports what the ECM is doing collectively with adaptive knock retard. We do not generally use AT for timing on these models, some knock activity is common and the 14-15 bikes are hyper sensitive to knock, so if you remove it you will end up with less than ideal performance. Unless you are getting large retard events I would not remove timing.
--
Thank you........Jamie Long"
This accounts for the slight drop in performance I felt after retarding some timing and misreading the log file. It doesn't report knocking on my 14, just what the adaptive knock retard is doing! (and the light comes on) No wonder everything I did made it worse. All timing back to original file from FuelMoto
Last edited by sdwold; Sep 27, 2014 at 01:29 AM.
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,858
Likes: 217
From: Puyallup Wa.
Thought I would post this since it contradicts alot of what some people have posted on here.
Jamie has posted that IN this thread. and keep in mind this thread is a mix of all different years of bikes.
Jamie has posted that IN this thread. and keep in mind this thread is a mix of all different years of bikes.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 848
Likes: 30
From: CO
I think you forgot to include whatever you were trying to post.
Edit: Nevermind, I see what you did.
Last edited by Red Dragons; Sep 28, 2014 at 11:34 AM.