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Apr 12, 2015 | 05:22 PM

#6961

scooterbum46

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Joined: Apr 2012

Posts: 482

Likes: 30

From: Michigan/Florida

Quote:

Originally Posted by ke5rbd

I try to not get too concerned with spark knocks 2 or blow. I too have noticed that the front cylinder on my 14 Limited has to be richer by about 2 % in load areas to keep the spark knock down. The 10 limited I had the rear had to be richer. For some reason the harley stock maps have the idle and low speed area richer on the front cylinder also on the 14 limited. Haven't looked at any of the Dyna or Softail stuff or air cooled. I know the computers on the canbus systems is much faster and may be set more sensitive on the Ion sensing. I run a Data Log and look for the spark knock and check the VE's in the spark knock area and if they are little leaner there will richen them up slightly and problem usually is gone. If it isn't lean there then I look at the spark table and if it can be reduced without causing a performance issue will knock it down a couple degrees. Usually can be reduced as it is already backing the timing off when it detects spark knock and I don't notice it. One thing for sure it will keep you busy chasing it. Above 2 you can fix it below sometimes can be fixed.

The rear is doing the random 1-2 thing. The front may be hitting a burst of them, but you are right, it's still not continuous. The ride the other day in +90 degree temp resulted in 3 or 4 on the rear and 95 or so on the front, in a 100 mile ride that included some stop and go and a fair amount of 50-70 Mph cruising. I'm not going to get paranoid over this, but do want to eliminate it before doing the stage 1 mods.

BTW - when I asked about this at the dealership, a tech who I think is pretty sharp stated that the front cylinder on the new ones ran hotter than the back, due to the lowers and the fender blocking airflow (huh - none of that stuff is new on the 14-15's ?).. I didn't argue, but thought he was either pulling my leg.....now I'm not so sure.

Crazy Legs - I got lazy today - had to take SO to a flea market and too hot and humid when we got back. I'll grab a socket and swap 'em later.

Thanks for the replies - Ill post the outcome.

Edit - another question - when marrying the PV to a new ECM, does it remove any files from previous bikes it has been used on ( I'm talking the log and .pvv files..) And if it doesn't, what files are safe to clean off the PV - I know that my original map and the tunes in the 8 slots are all OK, but some of the log files have more data elements logged than others (i.e. some have "ionQ", others don't).

Apr 12, 2015 | 08:07 PM

#6962

ke5rbd

Road Warrior

Joined: Apr 2010

Posts: 1,648

Likes: 37

From: Monroe, Louisiana

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooterbum46

I always pull and delete all log and .pvv files. I will do house cleaning on the custom tunes also. I may keep the previous one just incase or if I have one that is set up to run cooler I may run it long as not doing long rides. On the 3 and 4 degrees spark knock I would take a look at the corresponding VE cell or cells it came from by rpm and map or TP depending on map format and see if it doesn't need richening up there 2 or 3 points. I find that richening the VE's above 20% throttle position or above 60Kpa by 3 to 5 points higher than I think they need to be will cure the spark knock up high. The Autotune will lean it back out if you use it. I also richen the rpm area above 3500 the same way. Helps with the shift popping and decel popping and really doesn't affect the performance. Matter of fact it can actually improve the performance if you have enough timing in the acceleration area below 3000. don't add too much timing above 3000 as it seems to have plenty there. Some may disagree, but that works for me.

Apr 12, 2015 | 09:55 PM

#6963

fuelmoto

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Joined: Feb 2007

Posts: 7,287

Likes: 4,286

From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA_Dog

I agree- Especially considering the latest PV-2 and WinPV software will export and save the logged data, by default, in pvv file format. This is ridiculous because you cannot do anything with this logged data pvv file unless you can magically find an old copy of the Log Tuner software.

A .pvv file is not a log file, it is a value file which is an individual table or tables within a Power Vision calibration, .pvv files can be imported in the WinPv software.

PV logs are saved in .csv format, logs can be viewed in the Dynojet Power Core software which can be downloaded here

http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...5449.19123.exe

A .csv is a very general format, it can also be opened in most spreadsheet programs including MS excel

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Last edited by fuelmoto; Apr 12, 2015 at 09:58 PM.

Apr 12, 2015 | 10:15 PM

#6964

fuelmoto

Platinum Sponsor

Joined: Feb 2007

Posts: 7,287

Likes: 4,286

From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooterbum46

I'm having an issue with random knock count on the front cylinder ('15 stock 103 TriGlide). The other two 103's ('12 SG and a '14 Limited) showed more knock counts on the rear cylinder, which is normal due to more heat, this one shows an occasional instance of a knock event on the rear, but for some reason will show several at a time on the front. I'm running FM's "stock improved" map for the next month or so (gotta get home to Michigan before the "big" order to FM), but when I first put the PV on this bike, it was doing the same thing with a stock map.

Running MegaLogViewer on the last log file, I cannot seem to find a correlation between when the knock events happen and a change in Map, TP, or other logged parameters. I know that the ECM "thinks" it's a real event, because the front cylinder advance gets backed way down until the event is over and then advances again. I know that it seemed worse on a 100 mile run the other day, as the AAT was over 90 degrees, ET eventually moved up to 230 and head temp was running 270-290, but again, I've seen this when it was much cooler. What I am suspecting is either false ION knock sensing due to a bad plug or plug wire, but am wondering if there are other reasons for this issue..

Some knock activity is absolutely normal, especially on 14-15 CANbus models as knock retard is slightly different. Remember knock retard is based on sudden increases in cylinder pressure, not actual detonation and the number of knock counts is relative to the duration of the log or run cycle, you really need to look at overall knock retard activity. Also note on 14-15 bikes the knock retard channel is not individual knock events, it is adaptive knock retard that is learned. That is why your logs look funky in megalogviewer, they are the adaptive values not the knock events themselves

Apr 12, 2015 | 10:17 PM

#6965

fuelmoto

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Joined: Feb 2007

Posts: 7,287

Likes: 4,286

From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA_Dog

Interesting- I loaded a few of the canned tune files from PV's recent database into WinPV and ran Compares between the files. the tech's were not kidding. The files are EXACTLY the same on all parameters and settings. The only thing different between these canned tune files is the name of the file.

None of the maps are the same, I would make sure you are loading and comparing the maps correctly

Apr 12, 2015 | 10:29 PM

#6966

fuelmoto

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Joined: Feb 2007

Posts: 7,287

Likes: 4,286

From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by papifun

Been two seasons i haven't used my PV, i replaced my slip ons from V&H Ovals to V&H 4.5 hi Output Monster Rounds. I just updated all software for my PV. Can i have a quick refresher on correct way to run Data log and then view the log so I can send to FM for help. I think i got some knocking going on. What file do i need to send FM ? No one in my area still doesn't use the PV but only the SEPRT which i had and didn't like it.. not as user friendly..Is there a current link i can go to with detail instructions ? I want to make a economy tune and a power tune... Can i do this with just adjusting AFR or do i need to adjust VE tables too.. If i try to run with Basic Autotune , the bike runs like crap. feedback would be great. Yes i bough my PV from FM 4 years ago.

If you changed from the Monster Ovals (chambered) mufflers to the V&H Hi Output muffler you are going to need to do some pretty significant retuning. With your 107/TW-888 combination these extremely larged baffle mufflers will create low RPM performance and tuning issues due to their design (as would other mufflers of similar design) Assuming you had the bike tuned with your previous setup, at a minimum you will need to run a full series of runs with AT Basic, we will need to see copies of the tune you are starting with and the maps AT is populating. Once the VE is straightened out we can get a look at some logs. I would generally suggest using your Monster ovals with your combination, the Hi Outputs are going to put a hole in the lower RPMs and will be difficult to tune with your combo.

Last edited by fuelmoto; Apr 12, 2015 at 10:33 PM.

Apr 12, 2015 | 11:08 PM

#6967

fuelmoto

Platinum Sponsor

Joined: Feb 2007

Posts: 7,287

Likes: 4,286

From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam2010

in my opinion the more automated it got the more dumbed down it got. I really like the automation for the VEs however I still keep a eye on them because it seems like there's always some area that goes weird. I really liked having log tuner available and supported. just don't see how it would be that difficult to at least give it minimal support and let people utilize it that want to.

I haven't really had any spark issues with the Fuel Moto map for my 14 SG. and I admit I don't understand how it works it just has not sunk in how it's recorded and the CAN bus system. all I've seen is little snippets and comments that I have yet to really read a full explanation of spark knock knock on the CAN bus and how it's recorded with the Power Vision

WinPv is actually more powerful than Log Tuner, AT Basic/Pro populates the same corrections as Log Tuner did however you no longer have to export & import the logs and value files; all the heavy lifting is already done. You can open your base map and AT derived maps together in WinPv, the corrections are right there like log tuner, but you can edit the entire map right there with the individual tables or if you want to accept or clear Auto Tune corrections right in the delta screens. I will try to put together some screenshots this week with some helpful info, tricks, and things to look for in WinPv as well as using the Power Core software for logs. Some really cool stuff in there

Apr 13, 2015 | 01:21 AM

#6968

scooterbum46

Tourer

Joined: Apr 2012

Posts: 482

Likes: 30

From: Michigan/Florida

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuelmoto

Jaimie - thanks for taking the time to respond.. This only came up because I keep seeing the knock counter for the front cylinder register a much higher ratio of events when compared to the rear. I interpreted this as "somethings not normal". It is giving me a great opportunity to learn how to analyze the logs. I'm not sure as I understand the value assigned to "Spark Knock F" by megalogviewer, as it's expressed in degrees, but on a strip chart view it steps up staircase fashion. I've assumed that it's degrees of rotation, probably wrong. Note that when looking at spark advance on the chart it is always backing down for the duration of the knock event and then returning to the previous level.

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Apr 13, 2015 | 01:42 AM

#6969

LA_Dog

Outstanding HDF Member

Joined: Jun 2014

Posts: 3,185

Likes: 189

From: 90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuelmoto

This may be correct for your PV units and accompanying software, but is incorrect for the new PV-2 unit I bought, updated with latest firmware and running latest WinPV software from DJ's site. I have no doubt there is a way to change the logging file to csv for export, and I already understand that pvv is referenced as a value file.

Running though DJ's instructions on starting logging, the default process I encountered with the PV-2 when I exported the captured logged data through WinPV's "get log" operation, WinPV saved it with a pvv file extension. The DJ guide shows it being exported as a csv. I can't tell why my unit, by default, chose to save it as a pvv. The log settings in the PV2 were set to simple and not "pro-xy"

I eventually figured out how to open the pvv in WinPV using the "load values" menu option, but again, I have no idea why the PV-2 would export logged data in a pvv format. I was data logging and not auto tuning.

You may want to grab a new default unit with the latest firmware to see this oddity.

Apr 13, 2015 | 02:06 AM

#6970

LA_Dog

Outstanding HDF Member

Joined: Jun 2014

Posts: 3,185

Likes: 189

From: 90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuelmoto

None of the maps are the same, I would make sure you are loading and comparing the maps correctly

You are correct and that was my mistake for not being familiar with the software- the VE's are different between all of them, and I'm understanding now that having VE correct is key. Everything else though is 100% the same among these map files. None of these maps are for my specific set of pipes, yet I have different DJ techs saying use different files such as the one for Rinehart, Big Shots, and telling me 'oh they are all similar and do the same thing'- which tells me, they don't think VE matters all that much and neither does accurate tuning. Very disappointing from my side, is all I'm saying.