splatttt - I don't think all of any particular model is having the issue. If every single oil cooled one, or if every single twin cooled one (or both) potentially had the defect then I think it'd be a lot easier to diagnose and somebody would have identified the exact cause of the problem long before now.

The more difficult something is to identify the more likely it's either rare, or transient, or fleeting... So, to me, it seems more likely that not ALL of any model is affected. Which would mean that something happened on the production line to SOME of the motors which is now resulting in the transmission fluid migration.

So you'd have to start looking at things like subcomponent manufacturing, suppliers of component parts, procedural changes the MoCo introduced during the production run, even down to personnel changes during the production run.



Just as an aside: another manufacturer I know had some catastrophic failures with about 1.6% of a production run of one of their small gasoline motors (an accessory motor mounted on a larger piece of earth moving equipment). It took them a while to troubleshoot because the problem was ultimately caused by a metal cutting edge blade (kind of like a cold metal router bit) being used in one of seven CNC machines that were making one half of an engine case for these small motors. Each of the seven CNC machines had four blades installed and only one blade in one of the motors was going bad at any one time.

Now any cutting blade will wear down over time and the CNC engineers had used supplier data to predict that they would have to replace the blades once every five hundred engine casings (per CNC machine). But there was a bad batch of blades mixed in with the rest. The bad blades cut fine but wore out much more quickly than expected, causing some engine casings to have bad dimensions after only 450 had been produced (when 500 was the replacement point that had been calculated).

So, bottom line, about 1.6% of the total were out of specifications but identifying which ones were out of specifications was totally impossible to predict by serial number or date of manufacture records.

The company only had two choices to identify the faulty motors: run them to operating temperature and if they seized they were bad, OR disassemble every single one and measure the engine casing bearing surfaces by hand.

It actually turned out to be more cost effective to scrap ALL the accessory motors and build an entire new lot. But the whole thing took a couple of years to totally manifest itself as a problem and then diagnose exactly what the problem was.

Not all their motors were faulty but the ultimate fix was to replace every single one. A different company might have decided to let them self-diagnose by destruction and then replace only the ones that went bad.

 

appreciate the lengthy speculation. As I also have run that same concern through my thought process ,over and over. And I stand with you.
But despite the apparent migration issues. There have been some fixes applied that have worked. And some that have not.
On the ones that have worked, there has been a consistent rate of success. Withe one being a seal that separates that transfer shaft rod going from tranny to primary drive.
The trouble there may be due to a bad identification of the said seal. Where the one that fails clearly doesn't belong. And some in house mechanics are aware and fixing it them self's. I expect the correct part number for this seal may be causing confusion at the assembly level and has yet to be rectified.
The other fix is a baffle that was not being used. This has been identified as a means for the MoCo's intent on saving production time and money, that is now being tested as a likely culprit to the migration. Yet the jury is still out on this potential fix, the one involving the seal is being ignored and not being an issue the MoCo is willing to admit as the main problem and fix.
Obviously saving face is something the engineers over at HD is something they are all too familiar with but are not at liberty to devolge with the general public. Nor with the in house mechanics at the dealerships.
Though it seems that a fix is there. Just not being made public. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.
One thing that has not come up is the trans vent hose... What would happen if IT failed?

 

Problem with all of this is HD applied there latest fix to one of my bikes. Rode it back from the shop and parked it which was about 18 miles. Next day checked the fluid level in the transmission and nothing was showing on the stick! Not much of a fix in my book. I own one of each oil cooled and water cooled and they both do it.

This is a design flaw and it will happen to each and every M8 if ridden in the proper conditions.

HD now coming out and claiming it is normal for fluid to transfer, just shows they have no idea what to do and how to fix it. If it were normal why has it never been in the past? Why has it not been in any service manuals or owners manuals?

 

So a recall to replace a seal could be the fix?
Sounds like the Torque issuein my S Class... No sir there is no on going issue with your car....3 visits later yes it’s a recall and you get a new one installed today.

 

As is, riding it in the proper rev limit

 

It is riding it within the range that the bike allows as it is supplied from HD. The problem is worse at higher RPM's, so if you ride and keep the RPM below 3000 RPM transfer will most likely not be a problem for you. That doesn't mean it's not happening, just means it will be little between the 5000 mile service intervals. Those that run the engine RPM higher, (3000 - 5000) will see more transfer and run the risk of the transmission running dry or very close to it. Using my own bike as an example (17 Ultra Limited) it was ridding about 100 miles through the canyons and open highway running the engine in the 2500 - 5000 RPM range with most of the time spent around 4000 - 4500 in the canyons the transmission dropped from full down to only 4 oz left in it. Transmission started making noise and felt like something dragging as bike was ridden to dealership. Transmission drained at dealership and that was when they only got 4 oz out of it. So it's been taken in and the transmission has has 10 oz one time, 8 oz another time and the 4 oz the last time. Each time they have applied a fix and called it good to go and when ridden after each fix nothing has changed. When I picked it up the last time I rode it about 18 miles and parked it. The next morning I check the fluid and it was already off the dipstick again. Took it back to dealership again and there it sits. Bike has a grand total of about 500 miles on it.

 

Steve, I've tested mine and one other street glide on the dyno in the RPM range you described... neither one of those two had any migration. I even repeated the dyno test with my bike seven thousand miles after the first test.

I know the migration is happening on some bikes, but it isn't happening on those two.

So to say "its a design flaw and itll happen to every bike..." is ONLY true if you know exactly what the flaw is. And if anyone knows exactly what the flaw is then we'd have a fix that works instead of a MoCo fix that left your transmission empty again.

So, I have personal experience with two bikes where migration isn't happening and second hand knowledge of at least a dozen more where it isn't happening.

Couple that with the fact that if anyone knew what the exact problem was they'd be selling a fix by now.

... bottom line is you cant say it'll happen to every bike out there or that its even a design flaw. It may very well be a supply defect or a manufacturing process deviation of some sort. We just don't know at this point.

The fact that the MoCo is basically telling you to pound sand with your defective bikes really sucks! And even though I happened to get a good bike, the way they've treated you just might keep me from ever buying another HD

 

Oil migration is not occurring on EVERY M8 bike. I have a 2017 CVO Limited. I ride the full rpm range and do long distance riding as well as local riding. My bike is on its 3rd M8 114 engine.

The first engine failed from sumping at 4500m. The trans fluid was checked at 2000 and at 4000 miles with 0 migration. Primary was opened for a clutch spring upgrade at 2500 miles and was exactly at the proper level.

The 2nd engine was installed and upgraded to stage 4. It failed from sumping at 500 miles.

A 3rd new 114 engine was installed. I’ve kept this latest engine in stock form for now. After 1000 miles on this 3rd engine, HD covered the 1000m service and checked all fluid levels. Transmission was spot on. Primary was at the correct level. I just had the bike in the dealership again for replacing my heated seat under warranty (yeah, I know!j. Dealership checked all fluids (bike is at 7000 miles). Transmission, Primary and engine oil were exactly at spec.

I’m still a big fan of the M8 and HD which is hard to believe after being on my 3rd engine, replaced speedo due to condensation, replaced front rotors due to serious warping after only 4000, replacement heated seat and a saddlebag LED not funtioning from factory. All were fixed under warranty and HD provided me with a 7yr ESP including wheel & tire at no charge for my troubles.

So while I have certainly had issues with my 2017 CVO Limited, transmission/primary fluid migration has NOT been an issue for my M8 bike....thank goodness!! I’m not sure if having the trans fluid migration issue in exchange for all these other issues would be a good trade but I can honestly say HD and my dealership have stood by me and made everything right....so far.

Its worth noting my dealership has a 107 M8 in the shop with serious fluid migration from the tranny. The odd thing is that it had NO migration when it was in stock form. It only started to experience trans fluid migration AFTER the bike was upgraded to stage 3 with all HD parts. The dealership is working closely with HD tech and as of today still have no solution.

HD still owes me an upgrade to stage 4 which I will do this winter, but for now the bike is finally right and running terrific. Now I just want my stage 4 power back up and running wthout ANY issues.

 

Heatwave, I bet you’re one of those rare individuals who happens to talk a good talk. And fight a good fight.
Most are’t and are sent homewith their tails between their legs.
You done good. And it a great example for us to follow.

 

That’s a fair assessment. I don’t suffer fools well, but I give respect even to fools if they are making a good faith effort. I’ve spent loads of money with HD and expect fair and competent treatment in return. I don’t “get in people’s face” with lawsuit threats and other idle threats that aren’t gonna happen. Dealers hear those threats every week. They don’t happen.

I stick to the facts, keep the emotions to a minimum and work for the best resolution that will satisfy my sense of fairness. And I pursue it....relentlessly.... and calmly. That approach has worked best for me.