Power Vision Information Thread
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,710
Likes: 6
From: Spokane, WA.
Log events
Not exactly...I came to this conclusion/approach by loading the smoothed map. Then doing a few log runs and looking at how the VEs changed with the tuning on the smoothed map. The valleys reappeared right away. The more runs I made, the deeper the valley. They would stabilize in about three, thirty minute runs.
The difference approaches 6 percent at 3000 RPM from for the entire map range.
You can also verify this by setting the CLI/AFF on the gage display. When it stabilizes, that means that the valleys have been returned to the VE map.
If the ECU reads not only the exact cell it is in but those adjacent, my conclusion was that the peaks and valleys from the Closed Loop was confusing the EFI.
And if a slightly rich VE is not much different than running a richer AFR, there is no harm done. There must be something with my SE255 cams at 3000 RPM that is giving a resonance wave back through the system. I still have a stone stock exhaust system.
Again, there are some real leaps made here. Bottom line is that it runs really well. About 43 MPG, riding double with a week's worth of gear attached.
I also smoothed the AFR table. I did not like the look of the stair steps that you get on the map. You do not have to smooth the entire table. I just smoothed a row on either side where I changed the AFR and smoothed just that area.
I also have concluded that you should not smooth the spark tables. It raises the lows too much and reduces the highs too much.
Concerning the spark tables...one thing that I am doing now that I have locked in the VE/AFR is to find where the knock events occur.
You can use the log files to find the knock events but it will not tell you where you can increase the spark. If you tune out the knock events and then increase the spark across the board and continue to tune out the knock, you will find where the ignition map will take more advance. That is easy to do with the quick tune/spark in the tuner. Just add spark either across the board or in a specific range. I prefer the medium load...that is where I run the most.
The quick tune is my favorite feature. On our trip this summer, I just reduced the fuel (increased the AFR) by one percent and got better fuel mileage. You can also modify by fuel and spark for those really hot days right there on the screen. Previously, I had four alternate maps with richer AFR settings and less spark advance. You can now use your base map and adjust at your leisure. Have fun.
The difference approaches 6 percent at 3000 RPM from for the entire map range.
You can also verify this by setting the CLI/AFF on the gage display. When it stabilizes, that means that the valleys have been returned to the VE map.
If the ECU reads not only the exact cell it is in but those adjacent, my conclusion was that the peaks and valleys from the Closed Loop was confusing the EFI.
And if a slightly rich VE is not much different than running a richer AFR, there is no harm done. There must be something with my SE255 cams at 3000 RPM that is giving a resonance wave back through the system. I still have a stone stock exhaust system.
Again, there are some real leaps made here. Bottom line is that it runs really well. About 43 MPG, riding double with a week's worth of gear attached.
I also smoothed the AFR table. I did not like the look of the stair steps that you get on the map. You do not have to smooth the entire table. I just smoothed a row on either side where I changed the AFR and smoothed just that area.
I also have concluded that you should not smooth the spark tables. It raises the lows too much and reduces the highs too much.
Concerning the spark tables...one thing that I am doing now that I have locked in the VE/AFR is to find where the knock events occur.
You can use the log files to find the knock events but it will not tell you where you can increase the spark. If you tune out the knock events and then increase the spark across the board and continue to tune out the knock, you will find where the ignition map will take more advance. That is easy to do with the quick tune/spark in the tuner. Just add spark either across the board or in a specific range. I prefer the medium load...that is where I run the most.
The quick tune is my favorite feature. On our trip this summer, I just reduced the fuel (increased the AFR) by one percent and got better fuel mileage. You can also modify by fuel and spark for those really hot days right there on the screen. Previously, I had four alternate maps with richer AFR settings and less spark advance. You can now use your base map and adjust at your leisure. Have fun.
Can FM tweak data logs, so that the VE and Spark and all that is spot on?
I am getting a PV, and it will have AT basic.....
It seems to me that there is alot of work going into the process- above and beyond " auto tune " to get stuff dialed in?
Tell me it isn't that hard to dial a PV, I had enough with fun ( not ) with my ThunderMax that my reason for going with a PV. I know FM does have very good support too.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,858
Likes: 217
From: Puyallup Wa.
Mgm. Dont worry you will be fine. Some of us are a bunch of tweekers. The more we learned the more we played. The more we played the more we experimented the more we experimented the more we really figured out how to refine our tunes. My FM map worked ok with no tweeks but had to pull a little time out of spark tables and I went through 3 sets of pipes before I found a set that I liked and worked good. I had trouble on the way but no fault of PV or FM.
Last edited by Sam2010; Oct 9, 2012 at 04:56 PM.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Morganton, NC
Mgm. Dont worry you will be fine. Some of us are a bunch of tweekers. The more we learned the more we played. The more we played the more we experimented the more we experimented the more we really figured out how to refine our tunes. My FM map worked ok with no tweeks but had to pull a little time out of spark tables and I went through 3 sets of pipes before I found a set that I liked and worked good. I had trouble on the way but no fault of PV or FM.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Mgm. Dont worry you will be fine. Some of us are a bunch of tweekers. The more we learned the more we played. The more we played the more we experimented the more we experimented the more we really figured out how to refine our tunes. My FM map worked ok with no tweeks but had to pull a little time out of spark tables and I went through 3 sets of pipes before I found a set that I liked and worked good. I had trouble on the way but no fault of PV or FM.
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 871
Likes: 7
From: Manchester, NH
Charge dilution effect experiment
I had a change this evening to play with the Charge Dilution Effect to try and eliminate some valleys. It's a different type of riding as you are only concerned with areas 60kpa and below I think. Plus, I was trying to target specific rpm areas. The tune that I am trying to improve upon was made at a temp in the mid 80s to low 90s. The temps today were low 50s. I'm sure some of the changes to VE might be attributable to the temp difference.
Here is the Front Cylinder:
The graph on the left is the original with the valley at 2000. The graph on the right is after a change to the CDE of 20% to the 1875 and 2250 areas. It changed some, and I will increase these areas by another 20%. I'm really surprised at how similar the graphs are in all the other areas.
The Rear Cylinder was a much different:
The graph on the left is the original with valleys at 2000 and 3000. The graph on the right is after a 20% change to the 1875, 2250 and 3000. The 2000 rpm area really improved and am surprised at the 30, 35 kpa increase at 2250 and 2500 rpms. Looks like I might have taken too big a swing at the changes there; or, is some of it caused by the difference in temps. And why the rear cyl and not the front? The 3000 area did not change much only 1%. I'm thinking maybe I should have included the 2625 and 3375 areas of the CDE as well.
I think I'm on the right track. Rumor has it we might see the sun tomorrow and hopefully I'll get to adjust this again. I just have to get used to thinking about this stuff 3 dimensionally at 60kpa or less in the areas the motor operates in. Am I making sense?
Here is the Front Cylinder:
The graph on the left is the original with the valley at 2000. The graph on the right is after a change to the CDE of 20% to the 1875 and 2250 areas. It changed some, and I will increase these areas by another 20%. I'm really surprised at how similar the graphs are in all the other areas.
The Rear Cylinder was a much different:
The graph on the left is the original with valleys at 2000 and 3000. The graph on the right is after a 20% change to the 1875, 2250 and 3000. The 2000 rpm area really improved and am surprised at the 30, 35 kpa increase at 2250 and 2500 rpms. Looks like I might have taken too big a swing at the changes there; or, is some of it caused by the difference in temps. And why the rear cyl and not the front? The 3000 area did not change much only 1%. I'm thinking maybe I should have included the 2625 and 3375 areas of the CDE as well.
I think I'm on the right track. Rumor has it we might see the sun tomorrow and hopefully I'll get to adjust this again. I just have to get used to thinking about this stuff 3 dimensionally at 60kpa or less in the areas the motor operates in. Am I making sense?
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,710
Likes: 6
From: Spokane, WA.
Mgm. Dont worry you will be fine. Some of us are a bunch of tweekers. The more we learned the more we played. The more we played the more we experimented the more we experimented the more we really figured out how to refine our tunes. My FM map worked ok with no tweeks but had to pull a little time out of spark tables and I went through 3 sets of pipes before I found a set that I liked and worked good. I had trouble on the way but no fault of PV or FM.
I was looking at MGS true duals their pipes have dual bungs so if I wanted to get into maximum tune zone I could get the I wide band sensors and install those in the MGS TD pipes and really dial it in.....
For now though, just a PV will do.
Thanks all for your replies to my post.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 222
Likes: 3
From: London, England
Mpg
Can I ask those of you who've adjusted the MPG value in your tune for a Heritage Softail what value you are now using. Also US or Imperial gallons. I'm hoping to save some time.
Thanks for any help.
Thanks for any help.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: The Republic Of Texas
I got 2 questions
So I have had the PV now for over a month and I have read every single one of these posts. A lot of good information here. I have ran 2 tuning sessions prior to Auto-Tune, one with AT and then one more the old skool way (don't really care for the behind the scenes method). The bike runs great, a litlle hot for my preference but I have an oil cooler that needs to be installed and I hope that helps. Other issue I am having is decel popping. I have done everything that JD recomends. My DE table is half of what it used to be at >=118. My 20kpa column is ranging anywhere from 12-13. The popping only occurs if I get the bike up to high RPMs 2800 in 2nd and 3rd and a little higher for 4th and 5th (2900-3000 RPMs) and then just let off the throttle. I will get some gurgling and usually 1 or 2 pops. If I pull in the clutch as if changing gears then I do NOT get the pops. I can also set still in neutral, rev the engine to 2800 and let off the throttle with NO popping. So it has something to do with the load on the engine at higher RPMs.....I think. Any help and I will post my second (easier) question in the next post.
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: The Republic Of Texas
2nd question
After running the log tune and importing into the PVV. What do the numbers in the Spark Knock Front and Rear actually telling me. For example does a 1 in the cell mean there was 1 degree of retard in that range or 1 sec/min of 8 degree retard in that range? The tune process does not change the spark tables, maybe thats because my numbers are so small, but I am not sure. AND I am thinking you need to go into the spark table and remove some timing in these areas to stop the knock but I am unsure how much, mainly based on the fact that I dont know what the numbers actually mean.
Last edited by switzead; Oct 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM.