Power Vision Information Thread
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
So I'm sticking with the 14.2 tune as it runs cool enough and still is employing closed loop mode.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Hi Boston Chris,
I have done 10 AT's so far, each one is pushed a little farther to fill in as much of the cells as possible. The first 3-4 AT's were easy running with a high of ~20-25% throttle position and ~4000 max rpm's. Most of the VE's went richer ~5-10%.
Every tune after these (6-10) resulted in many cells running leaner than before and a number of them leaner than stock. Every thing over 60% throttle position went leaner than stock.
I am running stock narrow band O2 sensors that show no problems. I can change the CLB to a richer setting i.e.: ~14.4 ARF (786mv) and can tell they follow, engine runs richer in closed loop and shows no surging but I've read that it is not good to push the O2's like this and they are not really very accurate at this level.
Today I ran AT #9 & 10 and did a lot of roll on's to fill the chart as much as possible, hoping more data would help. It only made it worse. It even changed VE's outside the closed loop area (ie: wide open 80 & 100% TP) to a leaner VE setting!(~5%). Ouch.
I was surprised that the PV would change the last two columns (80 & 100% TP) since these columns are not set to 14.6 AFR that AT sets up and needs to acquire data.
I'm thinking of maybe running the Power Commander VE's (rich ~20% from stock) Harley's stock AFR's and Timing to see what happens. At least I would be starting off rich and the ARF's and Timing is safe.
I have done 10 AT's so far, each one is pushed a little farther to fill in as much of the cells as possible. The first 3-4 AT's were easy running with a high of ~20-25% throttle position and ~4000 max rpm's. Most of the VE's went richer ~5-10%.
Every tune after these (6-10) resulted in many cells running leaner than before and a number of them leaner than stock. Every thing over 60% throttle position went leaner than stock.
I am running stock narrow band O2 sensors that show no problems. I can change the CLB to a richer setting i.e.: ~14.4 ARF (786mv) and can tell they follow, engine runs richer in closed loop and shows no surging but I've read that it is not good to push the O2's like this and they are not really very accurate at this level.
Today I ran AT #9 & 10 and did a lot of roll on's to fill the chart as much as possible, hoping more data would help. It only made it worse. It even changed VE's outside the closed loop area (ie: wide open 80 & 100% TP) to a leaner VE setting!(~5%). Ouch.
I was surprised that the PV would change the last two columns (80 & 100% TP) since these columns are not set to 14.6 AFR that AT sets up and needs to acquire data.
I'm thinking of maybe running the Power Commander VE's (rich ~20% from stock) Harley's stock AFR's and Timing to see what happens. At least I would be starting off rich and the ARF's and Timing is safe.
I would start with what ever map has the more rich A/F table. And im just curious....is there a differance in the timing tables between the 2 maps you have? My wifes sportty is a carb so i cant help you out much. If it was a efi bike i might have had a different map to send you to try.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Hi Boston Chris,
Yes there is a difference in the Timing Tables.
I have noticed that there is quite a difference in all the Tables, VE, AFR, and Timing to the point that it is hard to even get a general pattern in some of them.
I can understand the differences in the VE tables but the AFR Tables are all over the place, and the Timing tables aren't as bad, just too many Tuners trying to bump the timing too high just to gain so little as so it appears.
A few posts back I tried to get everyone to post their Tables (VE, AFR, Timing) before and after tuning along with all the important data such as: Bike, Model, Year, Mods. But so far no replies. I thought it would be a great help to people who are just starting to learn how to tune. No real 'Trade Secrets' would be lost since all these tables are just starting points in many cases.
It was mentioned in another thread that since DynoJet only has imported Power Commander Maps for the Sportster that this would create a real opportunity for someone to come up with some non-converted Maps that would no doubt work much better.
DJ should come up with these themselves, it would surely get a lot more people interested in getting a PV for their Sportsters, especially stock ones as mine. If I'm having problems with Heat, Surging and Factory Lean conditions, then surely a lot of other Sportster owners are in the same bucket and would probably like to also solve them. I believe FuelMoto has a Stock Improved Map for Sportsters but I haven't seen it or know any of the details of it.
As of today I'm started running DynoJets Imported Power Commander Open Loop 'Stock Improved Tune'. Does not run bad, just leaves a lot of stuff turned off, really was not made for the Power Vision.
Oh well, I'll keep after it.
Yes there is a difference in the Timing Tables.
I have noticed that there is quite a difference in all the Tables, VE, AFR, and Timing to the point that it is hard to even get a general pattern in some of them.
I can understand the differences in the VE tables but the AFR Tables are all over the place, and the Timing tables aren't as bad, just too many Tuners trying to bump the timing too high just to gain so little as so it appears.
A few posts back I tried to get everyone to post their Tables (VE, AFR, Timing) before and after tuning along with all the important data such as: Bike, Model, Year, Mods. But so far no replies. I thought it would be a great help to people who are just starting to learn how to tune. No real 'Trade Secrets' would be lost since all these tables are just starting points in many cases.
It was mentioned in another thread that since DynoJet only has imported Power Commander Maps for the Sportster that this would create a real opportunity for someone to come up with some non-converted Maps that would no doubt work much better.
DJ should come up with these themselves, it would surely get a lot more people interested in getting a PV for their Sportsters, especially stock ones as mine. If I'm having problems with Heat, Surging and Factory Lean conditions, then surely a lot of other Sportster owners are in the same bucket and would probably like to also solve them. I believe FuelMoto has a Stock Improved Map for Sportsters but I haven't seen it or know any of the details of it.
As of today I'm started running DynoJets Imported Power Commander Open Loop 'Stock Improved Tune'. Does not run bad, just leaves a lot of stuff turned off, really was not made for the Power Vision.
Oh well, I'll keep after it.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 264
Likes: 2
From: USA
So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
What are you running for a bike and mods?
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 264
Likes: 2
From: USA
Have a 2012 Fatbob. 103 with Rush 2.0 slip ons and a screamin eagle heavy breather a/c.
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Yes, when using the onboard AT you start AT with a tune, run until good fill, export and then re-start with the new tune. Data collection restarts because you are now running with the adjusted VEs and logging differances against the new VEs.
There is a limit on how far the system can compensate for an inaccurate VE, and the larger the delta the less accurate the result.
So, first time round maybe you get alot of up 10 - 20 % changes, second time round (for any particular cell) under 10% ...
In later runs (after your have hit all the cells you reasonable can in multiple runs) you may want to do an extended run... Just stay in AT mode ride after ride until you have say 80+ hits in every single cell you can hit.
2011 96" FLHTC (with hard lowers and oil cooler added) I see similar temps... 200 - 230 Hwy, up to about 270 traffic, unless the temp is 80+, then getting closer to 300. Datalogging in stop and go for extended periods prolly not the best idea, the very high intake temps can skew things.
There is a limit on how far the system can compensate for an inaccurate VE, and the larger the delta the less accurate the result.
So, first time round maybe you get alot of up 10 - 20 % changes, second time round (for any particular cell) under 10% ...
In later runs (after your have hit all the cells you reasonable can in multiple runs) you may want to do an extended run... Just stay in AT mode ride after ride until you have say 80+ hits in every single cell you can hit.
2011 96" FLHTC (with hard lowers and oil cooler added) I see similar temps... 200 - 230 Hwy, up to about 270 traffic, unless the temp is 80+, then getting closer to 300. Datalogging in stop and go for extended periods prolly not the best idea, the very high intake temps can skew things.
So, I've run four or five auto tunes and each time, I've always built on the previous tune. Is this the correct procedure? I've noticed when setting up to do a session, and loading the last tune, the PV screen looks as if I'm starting from scratch. No blocks are filled at all.
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
Is this normal or am I screwing up somehow?
I've read of folks seeing engine temps of 250-260. I'm running hotter. It was 84 today and riding around in town (stop and go, but moving along) I'm seeing temps of 280-300. In heavy traffic, I'll see 300-315.
On cooler days (70s) moving along with no traffic I run around 250-260 or so.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of temps?
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 197
Likes: 1
From: Sahuarita, Arizona
VE values
So, after doing 5-6 AT runs what kind of numbers are you seeing in the VE tables? I've seen some maps that showed 100-127 in the cruise range. Stock are high 80's to low 90's. What should I expect?
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
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Joe Kucinski
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,454
Likes: 58
From: Graysville, AL
So, after doing 5-6 AT runs what kind of numbers are you seeing in the VE tables? I've seen some maps that showed 100-127 in the cruise range. Stock are high 80's to low 90's. What should I expect?
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
2012 trike w/103, K&N filter, stock mufflers, decatted.
but I figure the engine will put the #'s where they need to be. I'm down to a -0% average change and a 7% max on my last auto tune. I'm working with the AFR tables now.
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 197
Likes: 1
From: Sahuarita, Arizona
Since adding cams I have actually seen my VE's go down a good bit compared to the tune I had before cams. I'm no expert but I figure the engine will put the #'s where they need to be. I'm down to a -0% average change and a 7% max on my last auto tune. I'm working with the AFR tables now.
but I figure the engine will put the #'s where they need to be. I'm down to a -0% average change and a 7% max on my last auto tune. I'm working with the AFR tables now.