Power Vision Information Thread
Ah, Sweden! Tough to work on it from there. I spent 200 days of both 04 and 05 in Stockholm working with Ericcson. Stayed at the Hotel Slusen which was very nice. Have the salmon and lobster bisque at the Cantina in the Sqaure at Galmastan! 
okay.. enough of that. I'm sure it is frustrating not being able to get your hands on the bike.
Autotuning does not usually create any kind of change in the bike's running that is so severe/different that it goes into the spasms you talk about. It's just not a common occurance, which is why I was looking for other potential issues that might just manifest itself at AT time.
Another thought, is that the Powervision has a great feature in Vehicle Tools > Stored DTCs for you to easily read codes you might be throwing. It might be helpful to see what codes may be being generated.
Luckily it's almost May 1st. Do call the team out at Fuel Moto as soon as you can and get some insight and support from them. Please let us know how you make out.
Steve
okay.. enough of that. I'm sure it is frustrating not being able to get your hands on the bike.
Autotuning does not usually create any kind of change in the bike's running that is so severe/different that it goes into the spasms you talk about. It's just not a common occurance, which is why I was looking for other potential issues that might just manifest itself at AT time.
Another thought, is that the Powervision has a great feature in Vehicle Tools > Stored DTCs for you to easily read codes you might be throwing. It might be helpful to see what codes may be being generated.
Luckily it's almost May 1st. Do call the team out at Fuel Moto as soon as you can and get some insight and support from them. Please let us know how you make out.
Steve
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
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From: USA
Holy crap Jamie- I really like reading your posts, because you actually know what you are talking about and can explain it concisely. Can I have a copy of you here at my house? LOL
Admittedly I know my VH 2-2 pipes are far from optimal, they came with the bike. I have a RB Racing LSR 2-1 pipe on my (heavily modified) 107 Evo, putting out 120hp/130tq, and the pipe was a huge factor in getting those TQ numbers. I will be putting on a better, 2-1 pipe on the Breakout next spring when I do the cam and head mods.
But! Optimizing DE, VE, AFR and closed throttle spark have all but eliminated the decel popping from the VH 2-2 pipes, so I'm very happy with the amount and depth of adjustments offered by the PV-2.
Admittedly I know my VH 2-2 pipes are far from optimal, they came with the bike. I have a RB Racing LSR 2-1 pipe on my (heavily modified) 107 Evo, putting out 120hp/130tq, and the pipe was a huge factor in getting those TQ numbers. I will be putting on a better, 2-1 pipe on the Breakout next spring when I do the cam and head mods.
But! Optimizing DE, VE, AFR and closed throttle spark have all but eliminated the decel popping from the VH 2-2 pipes, so I'm very happy with the amount and depth of adjustments offered by the PV-2.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
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From: USA
How do you guys feel about using the smoothing feature? I've done 4 auto tunes and have most the areas I can hit to less than 5% change. So should I leave it as is or try smoothing it? Bike is running good but I'm seeing some knock retard on the highway while watching the gauges. once I get the ve's sorted I'll start playing with the timing a little. Still gotta figure that part out.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
My setup:
2015 Road Glide Special
Arlen Ness Inverted A/C
Vance and Hines True Dual headers
CFR Slip-ons
Powervision PV2
Using the canned map from Fuel Moto, the bike runs well. I am trying to dial it is with Auto Tune. The bike runs rough as hell in AT. In third gear, and especially 4th gear, power disappears, the engine lugs, then there is a loud detonation. This AT based on the preloaded Fuel Moto map for true duals and hi flow A/C.
I have read the the bike will often run round in AT, but when I export the map and load it, things are slightly better. There is less hesitation, but in fourth the engine winds out and there is that loud detonation and power picks back up.
Should I fight through it and keep running AT, or is this bad for the engine? Anyone else have similar issues with AT based on a known good map?
2015 Road Glide Special
Arlen Ness Inverted A/C
Vance and Hines True Dual headers
CFR Slip-ons
Powervision PV2
Using the canned map from Fuel Moto, the bike runs well. I am trying to dial it is with Auto Tune. The bike runs rough as hell in AT. In third gear, and especially 4th gear, power disappears, the engine lugs, then there is a loud detonation. This AT based on the preloaded Fuel Moto map for true duals and hi flow A/C.
I have read the the bike will often run round in AT, but when I export the map and load it, things are slightly better. There is less hesitation, but in fourth the engine winds out and there is that loud detonation and power picks back up.
Should I fight through it and keep running AT, or is this bad for the engine? Anyone else have similar issues with AT based on a known good map?
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
So today I took a ride with the wife running the no cat map sent by FM. I ran two logs while out riding. The second log was after we stopped for some refreshments.
When I got home I downloaded the logs and opened them with excel. The first log showed that the bike was pulling 1.75* of timing during the whole ride except when the TP was below 17%. Then it would drop to 0% in steps.
When I opened the second log, which was made after the stop and having cycled the ignition I found no timing pulled for then next 45 minutes of data logging. Not one timing event. So it appears the ecm learned the timing setting and trimmed it to compensate for the timing pull during the first log run. I wasn't aware that the ecm would do that and I wonder if I reload the map and reset the trims if the 1.75 timing pull would show up again.
I plan on doing my AT runs tomorrow to get the VE's dialed in for this tune. I know the learned trims will be reset at that time. My question is, are the trims that we reset when loading a new map and doing AT stored on the ecm? Are we resetting the ecm learned value/trims?
I have looked at many logs from back when I was doing the 08 Ultra, but I have never seen timing pulled at a steady setting like the first data log was showing and then have it gone in a second log with no changes to the tune from the pv.
I guess I am a little confused here.
When I got home I downloaded the logs and opened them with excel. The first log showed that the bike was pulling 1.75* of timing during the whole ride except when the TP was below 17%. Then it would drop to 0% in steps.
When I opened the second log, which was made after the stop and having cycled the ignition I found no timing pulled for then next 45 minutes of data logging. Not one timing event. So it appears the ecm learned the timing setting and trimmed it to compensate for the timing pull during the first log run. I wasn't aware that the ecm would do that and I wonder if I reload the map and reset the trims if the 1.75 timing pull would show up again.
I plan on doing my AT runs tomorrow to get the VE's dialed in for this tune. I know the learned trims will be reset at that time. My question is, are the trims that we reset when loading a new map and doing AT stored on the ecm? Are we resetting the ecm learned value/trims?
I have looked at many logs from back when I was doing the 08 Ultra, but I have never seen timing pulled at a steady setting like the first data log was showing and then have it gone in a second log with no changes to the tune from the pv.
I guess I am a little confused here.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
This is my first post on this thread. I'm up to page 617. Lots of smart guys on here and I think I have a good grasp of what's going on. But I have a few questions that I haven't seen asked yet . I know staljim69 will know the answer to these questions.
My bike is a 2002 deuce
1. Fuelmotousa sent me a map that is tps based. My original tune I removed was map based. Would it be more advantageous to have a map based ve table? Which is better and why?
2. I've read about manually smoothing the ve table in the edge cells you don't hit. I assume this means to remove a spike or a dip and put in a number close to the number of the adjacent cell that I am hitting. Is this correct?
3. I know the pv won't add timing. So once my ve is dialed, should I globally add a degree or two to the whole table, then ride and log, and use log tuner to pull it back out. Keep repeating until I have all timing advanced within a degree of a knock, then globally remove two degrees. Or am I overthinking this one?
My bike is a 2002 deuce
1. Fuelmotousa sent me a map that is tps based. My original tune I removed was map based. Would it be more advantageous to have a map based ve table? Which is better and why?
2. I've read about manually smoothing the ve table in the edge cells you don't hit. I assume this means to remove a spike or a dip and put in a number close to the number of the adjacent cell that I am hitting. Is this correct?
3. I know the pv won't add timing. So once my ve is dialed, should I globally add a degree or two to the whole table, then ride and log, and use log tuner to pull it back out. Keep repeating until I have all timing advanced within a degree of a knock, then globally remove two degrees. Or am I overthinking this one?
Forget about spikes or dips. These tuners are not the best way to tune a bike for performance. Any time you manually smooth you're just guessing. You'd be much better off if you just rode for an hour or two and logged your normal riding range. Then run your AT's a block further out to the right and another 500 rpm. This way you cover where you normally ride, and a tad more.
Globally? No. Break it down to idle/low rpm....cruise...and what happens when you whack the throttle. These motors don't need as much timing as most here think. Running the timing at the ragged edge. because you heard someone here say it, is just not a good idea. What you want is a smooth running, cool, engine. If it pings, every time, you whack it, then pull some out. At cruise, are there any vibrations? Take a little out. Does adding a degree or two, or subtracting, change the temps? it's all trial and error. But i would never globally add timing to any engine.A pro can measure timing changes. You can't. So focus on how smooth the engine runs and then leave it alone.
Road Captain
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 716
Likes: 10
From: Shreveport,La
Note on 14-15 CANbus bikes Knock Retard does not register individual knock events, it represents learned timing retard. Adaptive knock retard is not stored, it resets itself with every key off, upon restart it returns to the standard timing table and starts over. Looking at the data you should be pretty well tuned, the spark retard you are seeing is normal for a 14-15 bike, it is far more sensitive than earlier models in the fact it pulls timing well before any actual detonation is present however if you remove timing to eliminate the retard you end up with reduced performance.
After looking at my logs and my latest AT (4th) he said I was pretty much dialed in and it didn't need anything done to the Tune.
I rode up to Arkansas with some friends over the weekend. Mine was the only non CVO, but it pulled very strong and gas stops showed I got the best MPG. That depending on the riding for that tank ranged from 38 to 42 mpg which really surprised me. I also ran the gauges and watched the ET and Coolant Temp. ET never exceeded 210 and coolant ran around 171 with the ambient temps hitting 90*.
That being said it appears you are correct Jim about the timing resetting on key. Thanks.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
I sent this question to Jamie along with my AT's and logs. His response was:
Note on 14-15 CANbus bikes Knock Retard does not register individual knock events, it represents learned timing retard. Adaptive knock retard is not stored, it resets itself with every key off, upon restart it returns to the standard timing table and starts over. Looking at the data you should be pretty well tuned, the spark retard you are seeing is normal for a 14-15 bike, it is far more sensitive than earlier models in the fact it pulls timing well before any actual detonation is present however if you remove timing to eliminate the retard you end up with reduced performance.
After looking at my logs and my latest AT (4th) he said I was pretty much dialed in and it didn't need anything done to the Tune.
I rode up to Arkansas with some friends over the weekend. Mine was the only non CVO, but it pulled very strong and gas stops showed I got the best MPG. That depending on the riding for that tank ranged from 38 to 42 mpg which really surprised me. I also ran the gauges and watched the ET and Coolant Temp. ET never exceeded 210 and coolant ran around 171 with the ambient temps hitting 90*.
That being said it appears you are correct Jim about the timing resetting on key. Thanks.
Note on 14-15 CANbus bikes Knock Retard does not register individual knock events, it represents learned timing retard. Adaptive knock retard is not stored, it resets itself with every key off, upon restart it returns to the standard timing table and starts over. Looking at the data you should be pretty well tuned, the spark retard you are seeing is normal for a 14-15 bike, it is far more sensitive than earlier models in the fact it pulls timing well before any actual detonation is present however if you remove timing to eliminate the retard you end up with reduced performance.
After looking at my logs and my latest AT (4th) he said I was pretty much dialed in and it didn't need anything done to the Tune.
I rode up to Arkansas with some friends over the weekend. Mine was the only non CVO, but it pulled very strong and gas stops showed I got the best MPG. That depending on the riding for that tank ranged from 38 to 42 mpg which really surprised me. I also ran the gauges and watched the ET and Coolant Temp. ET never exceeded 210 and coolant ran around 171 with the ambient temps hitting 90*.
That being said it appears you are correct Jim about the timing resetting on key. Thanks.
That's why I said I wouldn't ever want an ECM to make permanent changes based solely on one days ride, or a one or two time scenario.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
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From: USA
Really appreciate the insight.
Im prob gonna go for it. Since ill prob be stationed in different areas that will require me more dyno time in the long run, I think it'll serve me well.
You're saying the O2 sensors I already have will work with the PV2 for auto tune? Cause my exhaust can run 12mm or 18mm, I think.
Im prob gonna go for it. Since ill prob be stationed in different areas that will require me more dyno time in the long run, I think it'll serve me well.
You're saying the O2 sensors I already have will work with the PV2 for auto tune? Cause my exhaust can run 12mm or 18mm, I think.
If you're not trying to build a tire burner basic AT will serve you well. I say that because the average Joe Shmoe doesn't ride outside of closed loop that much. If you're the type that's always banging the rev limiter I would reccomend paying for a real tune. A couple hundred is cheaper that toasting an engine.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Have the ve's settled down yet. I would run AT's until the VE's settle down to a 3% change. That's the first step in this silly tuning game. That should happen in under 5 AT runs.