Power Vision Information Thread
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
even tho i have some fairly significant swings (7 to ten percent from negative to positive, its a back and forth thing) i still think i am getting close to having my ve's sorted out.
there are several thing that make me think this.
1 doing runs in cold temps vs warm temps (i ride in everything, anytime) am i on crack to think air density due to air temp has an effect on the ve/air flow ? ...sure does seem like it to me (but i am willing to be schooled on this)
2 i can feel a definite improvement seat of the pants....even the guys i ride with on a regular basis think my bike is "quicker now" (actually getting more of a smile factor from this bike:-)
3 looking at the logs and watching for knock events. i quickly learned that more accurate air flow equaled less knock events ( i can also see a big difference running 91 vs 94 gas in regards to knock... i'll deal with that later)
given the points i just mentioned i must say that i would be (somewhat) surprised if i can truly reach a point of "less than 3-5% change" i will still keep trying and if i dont reach that bench mark (fairly easy to do if i do consistent runs) then i am starting to think that....
A i will just have to be happy with what i have and choose the results that feel best.
there are several thing that make me think this.
1 doing runs in cold temps vs warm temps (i ride in everything, anytime) am i on crack to think air density due to air temp has an effect on the ve/air flow ? ...sure does seem like it to me (but i am willing to be schooled on this)
2 i can feel a definite improvement seat of the pants....even the guys i ride with on a regular basis think my bike is "quicker now" (actually getting more of a smile factor from this bike:-)
3 looking at the logs and watching for knock events. i quickly learned that more accurate air flow equaled less knock events ( i can also see a big difference running 91 vs 94 gas in regards to knock... i'll deal with that later)
given the points i just mentioned i must say that i would be (somewhat) surprised if i can truly reach a point of "less than 3-5% change" i will still keep trying and if i dont reach that bench mark (fairly easy to do if i do consistent runs) then i am starting to think that....
A i will just have to be happy with what i have and choose the results that feel best.
OR
B perhaps i need to take a real good look at o2 placement and depth.
i can and will grind down my bungs to get the sensors at a more effective depth if i need to, or even move them to the 12mm locations (i have 18mm but can and will drill and tap if need be) .
i do not want to weld in new bungs cause i have ceramic coated pipes (inside and out) and i know that will not be fun to deal with.
i am still a new student to all of this and i know it will be some time before i can consider myself anything but a new student. i do have an open mind and eventually i do become well versed in subjects i take an interest in.
on a side note, after just one run with lower idle settings (bike and pv) i can feel an improvement with first gear ride-ability.
to be honest i am not certain if it is related to running 1000 rpm idle vs the 950 idle i have had since i got the pv or a combination of both.... i think it would be educational to change my idle back to 950 just to see :-)
my posts are getting long winded but i would like to thank everyone who has provided us here with there knowledge... this would not be so easy without it.
if it helps.... i have a 2011 blackline with rush 2-1 exhaust, dkcustoms outlaw breather (and my god those pirelli night dragons are great tires)
B perhaps i need to take a real good look at o2 placement and depth.
i can and will grind down my bungs to get the sensors at a more effective depth if i need to, or even move them to the 12mm locations (i have 18mm but can and will drill and tap if need be) .
i do not want to weld in new bungs cause i have ceramic coated pipes (inside and out) and i know that will not be fun to deal with.
i am still a new student to all of this and i know it will be some time before i can consider myself anything but a new student. i do have an open mind and eventually i do become well versed in subjects i take an interest in.
on a side note, after just one run with lower idle settings (bike and pv) i can feel an improvement with first gear ride-ability.
to be honest i am not certain if it is related to running 1000 rpm idle vs the 950 idle i have had since i got the pv or a combination of both.... i think it would be educational to change my idle back to 950 just to see :-)
my posts are getting long winded but i would like to thank everyone who has provided us here with there knowledge... this would not be so easy without it.
if it helps.... i have a 2011 blackline with rush 2-1 exhaust, dkcustoms outlaw breather (and my god those pirelli night dragons are great tires)
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Hello everyone, still looking for a new Map to play with.
I have a 2012 1200 Sportster Custom, completely stock.
I also have a new Power Vision I'm playing with.
I have tried DynoJets "Improved Stock Tune" and even AutoTuned it. I have also done the same with the stock tune. They don't run bad but I like to experiment and 'play'.
Unfortunately my wife bought my PV and it was not from FuelMoto so it appears that at this time, no FM Maps for me.
I sent this Email to FM but no reply as of yet. :-(
I would like to try running FuelMoto's 'Stock Improved Tune' that is for my Bike just to see if it runs any better than the other two Maps I have been playing with.
So, my question is does anyone have a 'Stock Improved Tune' from FuelMoto that goes to my 2012 1200 Sportster Custom that they could send me?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
John
I have a 2012 1200 Sportster Custom, completely stock.
I also have a new Power Vision I'm playing with.
I have tried DynoJets "Improved Stock Tune" and even AutoTuned it. I have also done the same with the stock tune. They don't run bad but I like to experiment and 'play'.
Unfortunately my wife bought my PV and it was not from FuelMoto so it appears that at this time, no FM Maps for me.
I sent this Email to FM but no reply as of yet. :-(
I would like to try running FuelMoto's 'Stock Improved Tune' that is for my Bike just to see if it runs any better than the other two Maps I have been playing with.
So, my question is does anyone have a 'Stock Improved Tune' from FuelMoto that goes to my 2012 1200 Sportster Custom that they could send me?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
John
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
Guys, you're starting to complicate this more than it needs to be.
As far as where your base cals are coming from. The maps you're pulling off the DJ site are canned PCIII import maps. They're perfectly fine for a starter map. Even if you select an oddball map you'll be fine. The bottom line is, depending on how oddball, you may need to make 2 or 3 more AT runs to dial it in. Most of those maps are pretty conservative on timing, so no issue there. Setting up an AT will yank 4 more, so don't sweat it. Just keep doing AT runs until you see 3% or less.
Daily temps: another non-issue. You can make a run at 70 degrees and then make a run at 80 degrees. Guess what...the VE's will change. But, not enough to skew a tune. If that was the case you'd have to ride your bike at one temperature only. If you worry about a 10 degree swing temps you'll never get it tuned. Now if you're doing one run in 50 degree temps and don't do another run until it's 100 outside...different story. Air density will affect the VE's. Tune a bike in Denver then ride it at sea level. That should convince you. If you worry about the VE differences from morning until afternoon in the same day, in the same locale, you'll be chasing your tail forever. if you feel this is a major concern then do this. Plan a 20 minute AT run in one direction...stop at the end....reflash....turn around and ride the same 20 minutes back to the house. If you're under 5% on those 2 AT runs pop a beer and call it done.
As far as AT riding techniques: If you get in a cell and it's racking up the hits then stay there. Simple. Let the dang thing max out to 99. the more hits the better. If you're not getting a good hit count in a certain cell try gently rolling on OR off the throttle. If you're right at the breakpoint of one cell to another it may give you a VE error flash. Just touch the throttle one way or the other slightly. Do your low RPM cells first. Then work mid. Then hit the freeway. Then hit some hills. If you're having trouble with cells to the left: Ex: Get the RPM's up to say 4000 then back off slowly and progressively, you'll start catching those cells to the left. Sometimes you need to over-rev and then slowly back off to get the hard to hit cells on the left. It just takes practice. If you need an hour to make it happen so be it. After a little practice you'll start filling cells in half the time.
GOATS: If you're getting 7% swings after 3 or 4 AT runs something isn't right. On your next 2 AT runs focus on getting 70+ hits in every cell. Now let me tell you something about that mysterious % you see at the end. If you hit one cell on an AT run that you never hit before, you will see this high %. Don't let it discourage you. It sounds to me like you're not hitting the same cells every time. When I first used the PV I lowered the hit count based on info I received. Definitely wasn't the right info for street tuning. On a dyno, maybe. Now I let them get into the 70+ hits and I don't see changes more than 3%. Most are 0, 1 and 2 %. Good data makes a world of difference. Anyway, what RPM area are you seeing these repetitive swings? You shouldn't be seeing any over 2500 RPM's. There's enough pressure to compensate for the crappy 02 sensor placement or depth, if that's an issue. Below 2500 is a different story, depending on what you're running for slipons or exhaust. Focus on a certain area, say up to 3000 RPM's and 60 kPa, or 25% TP if that's your cal. Work that area hard and then see what changes after 3 AT runs. Maybe you're trying to get too much done too quick, and not as efficiently as you need, just a thought. If nothing else, if you hit those areas HARD (70+ hits) and it still swings 7% then you need to look elsewhere. Intake leak? Exhaust leak? After 3 or 4 AT runs I think a 7% swing is pretty big. But, then again, how dorked up is your starter cal.
GOATS, again: I wouldn't be changing fuel blends between AT runs. If push comes to shove, and you can't get the same grade every AT run, better to tune with crappy gas EVERY time.
HIPPIE: Run that PCIII map you had in the bike before. You'll be fine. I wouldn't even consider using the PCIII map as a compare, to anything. It's probably a canned map and may or may not have even been close to what your engine needs. Use it as a starter map and forget about it. What you want to compare is your FIRST AT run to the second AT run, third, fourth, etc. What's important is that you're comparing the current AT run to the previous AT run. Once you load the PCIII, or even the FM starter map, that's it. It's over with the starter map. It's only good for it's name...starter map.
Guys, stop complicating this. The process is really pretty simple, but does have a learning curve. Street tuning takes a little practice or knack to fill the cells. ANYONE can do it though. The key is to be consistent and repetitive. Same route every time, same gas every time, same time of the day if temps concern you, hitting the same cells on every AT run, not being afraid of the sound your engine makes at 5000 RPM's. If the bike is in tunable condition, and you follow the basics, it will happen. If the bike isn't in tunable condition, it just won't happen. If it was me and we're sitting in the garage drinking beer, the first thing we'd do is spray the intake and replace exhaust head seals, and a little high temp copper on the slipons. Get the VE's in control, without over-thinking things, and the rest will fall into place. Some might even be so thrilled with the just the VE's they go riding. Others want to play with CDE, timing, etc. They DO run a hell of alot better when tuned. So, don't overthink it and just follow the steps.
As far as where your base cals are coming from. The maps you're pulling off the DJ site are canned PCIII import maps. They're perfectly fine for a starter map. Even if you select an oddball map you'll be fine. The bottom line is, depending on how oddball, you may need to make 2 or 3 more AT runs to dial it in. Most of those maps are pretty conservative on timing, so no issue there. Setting up an AT will yank 4 more, so don't sweat it. Just keep doing AT runs until you see 3% or less.
Daily temps: another non-issue. You can make a run at 70 degrees and then make a run at 80 degrees. Guess what...the VE's will change. But, not enough to skew a tune. If that was the case you'd have to ride your bike at one temperature only. If you worry about a 10 degree swing temps you'll never get it tuned. Now if you're doing one run in 50 degree temps and don't do another run until it's 100 outside...different story. Air density will affect the VE's. Tune a bike in Denver then ride it at sea level. That should convince you. If you worry about the VE differences from morning until afternoon in the same day, in the same locale, you'll be chasing your tail forever. if you feel this is a major concern then do this. Plan a 20 minute AT run in one direction...stop at the end....reflash....turn around and ride the same 20 minutes back to the house. If you're under 5% on those 2 AT runs pop a beer and call it done.
As far as AT riding techniques: If you get in a cell and it's racking up the hits then stay there. Simple. Let the dang thing max out to 99. the more hits the better. If you're not getting a good hit count in a certain cell try gently rolling on OR off the throttle. If you're right at the breakpoint of one cell to another it may give you a VE error flash. Just touch the throttle one way or the other slightly. Do your low RPM cells first. Then work mid. Then hit the freeway. Then hit some hills. If you're having trouble with cells to the left: Ex: Get the RPM's up to say 4000 then back off slowly and progressively, you'll start catching those cells to the left. Sometimes you need to over-rev and then slowly back off to get the hard to hit cells on the left. It just takes practice. If you need an hour to make it happen so be it. After a little practice you'll start filling cells in half the time.
GOATS: If you're getting 7% swings after 3 or 4 AT runs something isn't right. On your next 2 AT runs focus on getting 70+ hits in every cell. Now let me tell you something about that mysterious % you see at the end. If you hit one cell on an AT run that you never hit before, you will see this high %. Don't let it discourage you. It sounds to me like you're not hitting the same cells every time. When I first used the PV I lowered the hit count based on info I received. Definitely wasn't the right info for street tuning. On a dyno, maybe. Now I let them get into the 70+ hits and I don't see changes more than 3%. Most are 0, 1 and 2 %. Good data makes a world of difference. Anyway, what RPM area are you seeing these repetitive swings? You shouldn't be seeing any over 2500 RPM's. There's enough pressure to compensate for the crappy 02 sensor placement or depth, if that's an issue. Below 2500 is a different story, depending on what you're running for slipons or exhaust. Focus on a certain area, say up to 3000 RPM's and 60 kPa, or 25% TP if that's your cal. Work that area hard and then see what changes after 3 AT runs. Maybe you're trying to get too much done too quick, and not as efficiently as you need, just a thought. If nothing else, if you hit those areas HARD (70+ hits) and it still swings 7% then you need to look elsewhere. Intake leak? Exhaust leak? After 3 or 4 AT runs I think a 7% swing is pretty big. But, then again, how dorked up is your starter cal.
GOATS, again: I wouldn't be changing fuel blends between AT runs. If push comes to shove, and you can't get the same grade every AT run, better to tune with crappy gas EVERY time.
HIPPIE: Run that PCIII map you had in the bike before. You'll be fine. I wouldn't even consider using the PCIII map as a compare, to anything. It's probably a canned map and may or may not have even been close to what your engine needs. Use it as a starter map and forget about it. What you want to compare is your FIRST AT run to the second AT run, third, fourth, etc. What's important is that you're comparing the current AT run to the previous AT run. Once you load the PCIII, or even the FM starter map, that's it. It's over with the starter map. It's only good for it's name...starter map.
Guys, stop complicating this. The process is really pretty simple, but does have a learning curve. Street tuning takes a little practice or knack to fill the cells. ANYONE can do it though. The key is to be consistent and repetitive. Same route every time, same gas every time, same time of the day if temps concern you, hitting the same cells on every AT run, not being afraid of the sound your engine makes at 5000 RPM's. If the bike is in tunable condition, and you follow the basics, it will happen. If the bike isn't in tunable condition, it just won't happen. If it was me and we're sitting in the garage drinking beer, the first thing we'd do is spray the intake and replace exhaust head seals, and a little high temp copper on the slipons. Get the VE's in control, without over-thinking things, and the rest will fall into place. Some might even be so thrilled with the just the VE's they go riding. Others want to play with CDE, timing, etc. They DO run a hell of alot better when tuned. So, don't overthink it and just follow the steps.
Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 523
Likes: 1
From: kingston ontario
is there any way to see how many hits a given cell may have from looking at the data logs?
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
Last edited by goats; May 18, 2013 at 03:48 AM.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 117
From: Ashby, Ma
I've got the "starter map, nothing more" concept.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,858
Likes: 217
From: Puyallup Wa.
Log tuner.... Run the data through Log Tuner.
is there any way to see how many hits a given cell may have from looking at the data logs?
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
i often look at my csv logs after runs but i havent noticed a hit count, but to be honest i cant say i know what all the columns are.
i will pay more attention to what rpm range i am getting swings in.
i have never lowered the hit count on my pv settings but i have changed the max ve learn from 15 % to 20 % not sure if that could be an issue at all.
since my bike is running well i am wondering (assuming i have no intake or exhaust leaks, tho i should check them again) if it would be good to just keep running the same AT without exporting/disabling in an attempt to gather the max number of hits in every cell i have hit.... and yes there are times i manage to hit cells that are not easy to hit
edit: just to be clear i do know i can see the cells and hit counts on the data log screen.... just thought i would mention that so someone doesnt feel the need to tell me about it :-)
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 120
Likes: 3
From: Corona, CA.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Times Harley-Davidson Chucked Tradition Out the Window
Verdad Gallardo
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 120
Likes: 3
From: Corona, CA.
Thanks Sam.
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...
I have done that. I should have worded the question better. I was hoping for a D/L file I could save to my compooter. (as opposed to a direct auto-install)
But I do have a few general questions..
I intend to use the Auto Tune function quite a bit. (frequent engine mods) Are there any tuning tutorials for manual editing of an existing (auto) tune out there? The Help files are good but they don't really go into 'If X is what you want, this is ideal the goal' type of advice. I would like educate myself before I make edits. (to the color mappped red portions for instance.)
I'm also a little fuzzy on why the MoCo went to narrow band sensors. Thinking about a new pipe for my '12 FB & I'm wondering if an '11 pipe (in combo with the Pro Auto tune Module) would be a better option. I can not find any Dyna exhaust that has both 12 & 15 mm sensor bungs. (I even called V&H & they refused to special build a pipe with both.)
Is having both significantly better than N/B or W/B only?
What does N/B do that W/B doesn't?
tia...