LOL! Yes the guide SUCKS BAD. Hell it did not even accurately describe how to setup and enable data logging. This thread is the best "Guide" there is.

 

Glad to help with what little I know. Seriously, my helping you is like the "blind leading the blind".
I've only been learning on this Delphi system for 5-6 days, with guidance from the good members here. Hell I just got logging to work.
If I write anything that sounds kinda maybe intelligent it's only because I understand tuning principals and engine dynamics in general, but nothing about how that translates through to the Delphi system and EFI, and PV2 tuning areas. Give me an Evo, tunable ignition and a dyno and I'm all good. Other than that, learning curve in progress.

Hang out and maybe Jamie or Smokey will be able to share something actually smart.

 

Hey LA Dog, help is help, blind or not :^)

Yeah some guys on these boards are great and I am glad they stick around and help other not so tech savvy riders.

As I was researching the topic, I found this piece in another forum, copy right Doc 1. I think it's a great read specially that it talks specifically about Harley twins.

Spark Advance


There is too much involved in what the advance should be for optimum power and I know this is going to turn into a long thread once we get going on it. First off lets talk about when the max cylinder pressure should occur in a Twin Cam motor (Iron Head Sportsters, Shovel Heads, Pan Heads, etc are much different so lets keep this to Twinkies). Max Cylinder Pressure, BMEP, (Break Mean Effected Pressure) in a Twinkie should happen at 12 to 17 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Center). To achieve this pressure at 12* to 17* combustion has to start some where between 5* and 50* BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) depending on the RPM, the rate the mixture burns. There are several factors that determine the optimum ignition advance, some internal and some external. The internal factors are; combustion chamber design, piston shape, turbulence, compression ratio, cam timing, bore, rod/stroke relationship, number of plugs, AFR, fuel quality, and RPM. Some of the external factors are; bike weight, gear ratios, air temperature, altitude, and humidity. As you can see this gets very complicated.
The reason we want the max pressure at the 12 to 17* is this is where you will fine the most torque....a few degrees before 12* will drop power because the advance was way too early and the cylinder pressure is pushing down on the piston as it tries to reach TDC causing the flywheels to slow down. A few degrees after 17* you will have the piston out running the flame front....ie...the piston travels the fastest around 45 degrees ATDC and as the piston travels down the cylinder the combustion pressure drops very quickly so the pressure being too late will not push on the piston and again the flywheels slow down.
Also when more of the cylinder is exposed to the flame front, from retarded timing, the engine will run much hotter.
We want the timing as far advanced as we can get it without detonation happening. On a dyno I can find the sweet spot 12* to 17* ATDC buy watching the power increase or decrease with 2* timing changes....however without a dyno advancing the timing to detonation then backing it off a few degrees seems to be the norm. (being able to read the timing line on the spark plug works very well when you don't have a test track or a dyno.....another topic for another time).
Lets say the timing is set at 20* at idle or 1000 rpms, the time or interval we have to burn the mixture is about .0025 of a second, at 2000 rpm that time is cut in half, and at 4000 rpm it is cut in half again, so the higher the rpm the less time we have to burn the fuel so more advance is needed to get a jump on the less time we have. Now in reality after 3000 rpm the timing advance levels off because the rate of burn is offset by increased combustion turbulence and heat so less timing advance is needed on top end.
The higher the compression the less advance you need because the higher compression generates more heat as the mixture is compressed, the molecules are finer (a mist) and the activity is greater which is the rate of burn......if the mixture burns faster the less advance is needed to reach the sweet spot. Lets put it this way...a leaner mixture, less turbulence, lower combustion chamber temperature, lower density of air, and residual combustion gases all lengthen combustion time which needs more advance. Shortening combustion time to have less advance your conditions will need to have a richer mixture, more turbulence, higher temperature, higher pressure, and higher air density.
As mayor pointed out there are squish settings that promote better fuel rate of burn.....your squish is most effective between .025 and .040. Any thing below .025 you are very close to detonation with ever stroke and as carbon starts to build this gap closes even further, anything above .040 the squish is now ineffective and no longer promotes turbulence.....I like to see .030~.035.
I hope this gets your mind rolling and helps you to understand all involved in finding what the advance should be....each engine will be different however for a basic street bike a few degrees here and there chang is all you guys should be seeing for max power from the TTS timing tables. I see a lot of maps from people sending me their tunes from all over this world and I must say there are a few so called tuners out there that are killing these timing tables......you can't expect to remove 15 to 20 degrees of timing and expect the bike to run crisp with good throttle response....the bike will be sluggish to say the least.
Be careful just changing values without knowing the consequences.....

 

OddJack- that is all very good info and on the money, anyone who is an experienced motor builder and tuner, and is actually good at what they do must know all of these details like the back of their hand.

This statement: "We want the timing as far advanced as we can get it without detonation happening. On a dyno I can find the sweet spot 12* to 17* ATDC buy watching the power increase or decrease with 2* timing changes....however without a dyno advancing the timing to detonation then backing it off a few degrees seems to be the norm. (being able to read the timing line on the spark plug works very well when you don't have a test track or a dyno.....another topic for another time)."

Reminds me of hotrod and Evo tuning. Dyno is very helpful in fine tuning the ideal combustion event timing at max pressure. Manually bumping timing at home- that will only be as good as your butt dyno especially in such small increments. Reading plugs- eh, that is not easy these days with unleaded and E-rated gas. You need to run the bike and then shut it off while coasting, to be able to see anything accurate (if there is actually anything visible). back with leaded gas it was easier.

I read the PV-2 can do spark advance tuning with the wideband kit and AT pro, but I don't know how exact it is in regards to ensuring detonation occurs at the optimal max pressure zone.

I like a .030 gasket and zero-deck on the pistons, for a .030 final quench- Bonuses are polished tops of pistons and polished chamber domes. Cryo-treating the heads, valves and pistons also reduces chance of detonation especially when running dynamic compressions at or higher than 9.6:1 on pump gas.

 

[This does not work so don't try it]

Hey guys I got some cool "insider info" today and wanted to share- If you want a better way to view your csv data logs than lame Excel, download the latest DynoJet Powercore Software and install it. link: install data center software, import csv logs to the datacenter software, can graph and plot the results. http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/Dyno-Software-Firmware-Other/Software/Dynojet%20Power%20Core%20Setup%20v1.7.5449.19123.e xe

After you run the setup, select "Custom" as the install type. Select only the C3 Tuning Software and uncheck the Device drivers and WinPep8. That is all you need. After install, run DynoJet Powercore. Select the WinPep8 Data Center icon. When it opens, import your csv and you can graph your logged data. I'm about to try it out- it is free, and ok to do per DJ, so have at it.

 

^^^^ OK Scratch that one above- just tried it- you can import the csv but it will not display any of the data from the file. I did in fact see eventually that importing other csv log files is supported, it is part of the promo literature for the latest Powercore suite of software - but it won't load when i initiate a log file import. just spins on "importing please wait" and never completes. oh well..

 

Once in the "green screen" if you exit out will it still autotune? Or what if the bike dies on you at a red light(its happened to me before) and you have to start it back up?

 

From 2000 to 2007 were all cable based EFI on the Touring models.

 

You can go back to the "Green Screen" and continue logging AT data from where you left off. Just remember 99 is the most hits a cell will hold. It"s better to do 3, 30 min runs and reflash as you go than one long 90 min run.(Example, I would ride down to south St. Pete on backroads. Export /Flash then ride back on the Interstate to hit higher RPM and Kpa load areas.) If ya wind it up to 5500-,6000 RPM around here in 3 gears your just begging for a ticket or worse lol.

 

Thanks oldhippie, I"ve been straining my brain trying to remember stuff I havn't used for a while.