Power Vision Information Thread
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
No, nothing like that HT, Acel Enr and Decl Enl are the two obvious signals.
I knew what you meant about hard, I thought none should have made a difference but will try the enrichment table rather than the global multiplier next ...but it was miserable here today so didn't get out.
I knew what you meant about hard, I thought none should have made a difference but will try the enrichment table rather than the global multiplier next ...but it was miserable here today so didn't get out.
I believe that global multiplier is labeled wrong and it is actually a cylinder off set. This would line up more from what I have seen in different tuning software. With the tables that we do have. It is nonsense to have a global multiplier and makes much more sense that the rear might need more or less than the front.
BUT I have talked to DJ about this and couldn't find an answer. I just get told to leave it alone. So, what I believe up top should be taken as a theory and I have no proof.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 189
From: 90210
The biggest challenge I found was getting those lower areas nice and accurate and smooth. That gives you good manners tootling around town but also gets you going from idle at the stop lights to up and running into those higher revs. Mine certainly isn't a race engine so I wanted it to be able to work below 2000 revs ...for example.
Bottom line, you want as many hits over as much of the table as you can get, and then ask the pro guys in here for help if you still need it. Good luck
Bottom line, you want as many hits over as much of the table as you can get, and then ask the pro guys in here for help if you still need it. Good luck
With AT enabled I will start bike, let it warm up till it hits about 165 degrees - at which point AT starts recording hits as my AT's "min temp" is set to 165f.
Watching the green screen of recorded VE hits on the PV, I'll start to see my idle VE cell get hits. I'll lightly apply throttle, sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, to hit the other VE areas around idle and off idle. I will hold the rpm's up at say 1100 with barely any throttle then give it a quick crack open a little bit to pull some medium map loads in that row.
If you try this for a bit you'll see how you can easily hit all of the idle and off idle VEs from 1000rpm up to 2000rpm and from 30kpa to 50kpa - all in about 2 to 3 minutes and no issue with getting bike overly hot either. this is why I set "min hits" to 2 so each cell records changes faster.
From here I export the auto tune data to a new tune slot.
disable auto tune
load the new tune file with tuned VE's in idle and off idle areas, go for tuning rides and my idle / off idle are mainly dialed in.
I spoke with DJ about this - Jamie may chime in as well - some of you may not agree. this is just something that worked for me very consistently. there is no less accuracy using 2 for min hits than using a higher number and there is no downside to tuning idle / off idle with bike stationary. of course just don't run the bike too hot or too long standing still, common sense stuff.
Hope it helps.
Last edited by LA_Dog; Jun 29, 2016 at 08:39 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
I came up with a process to hit these areas that works pretty well. I will load my new tune file into auto tune, with min hits set to 2 in the PV's auto tune settings. I also have my min kpa set to 30 since I idle around 36-38 cold and 32-34 warm.
With AT enabled I will start bike, let it warm up till it hits about 165 degrees - at which point AT starts recording hits as my AT's "min temp" is set to 165f.
Watching the green screen of recorded VE hits on the PV, I'll start to see my idle VE cell get hits. I'll lightly apply throttle, sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, to hit the other VE areas around idle and off idle. I will hold the rpm's up at say 1100 with barely any throttle then give it a quick crack open a little bit to pull some medium map loads in that row.
If you try this for a bit you'll see how you can easily hit all of the idle and off idle VEs from 1000rpm up to 2000rpm and from 30kpa to 50kpa - all in about 2 to 3 minutes and no issue with getting bike overly hot either. this is why I set "min hits" to 2 so each cell records changes faster.
From here I export the auto tune data to a new tune slot.
disable auto tune
load the new tune file with tuned VE's in idle and off idle areas, go for tuning rides and my idle / off idle are mainly dialed in.
I spoke with DJ about this - Jamie may chime in as well - some of you may not agree. this is just something that worked for me very consistently. there is no less accuracy using 2 for min hits than using a higher number and there is no downside to tuning idle / off idle with bike stationary. of course just don't run the bike too hot or too long standing still, common sense stuff.
Hope it helps.
With AT enabled I will start bike, let it warm up till it hits about 165 degrees - at which point AT starts recording hits as my AT's "min temp" is set to 165f.
Watching the green screen of recorded VE hits on the PV, I'll start to see my idle VE cell get hits. I'll lightly apply throttle, sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, to hit the other VE areas around idle and off idle. I will hold the rpm's up at say 1100 with barely any throttle then give it a quick crack open a little bit to pull some medium map loads in that row.
If you try this for a bit you'll see how you can easily hit all of the idle and off idle VEs from 1000rpm up to 2000rpm and from 30kpa to 50kpa - all in about 2 to 3 minutes and no issue with getting bike overly hot either. this is why I set "min hits" to 2 so each cell records changes faster.
From here I export the auto tune data to a new tune slot.
disable auto tune
load the new tune file with tuned VE's in idle and off idle areas, go for tuning rides and my idle / off idle are mainly dialed in.
I spoke with DJ about this - Jamie may chime in as well - some of you may not agree. this is just something that worked for me very consistently. there is no less accuracy using 2 for min hits than using a higher number and there is no downside to tuning idle / off idle with bike stationary. of course just don't run the bike too hot or too long standing still, common sense stuff.
Hope it helps.
A couple of things jump out, some I agree with, some didn't work for me, but we all develop our own methods I suppose and it becomes how fussy you get ...and pedantic is my middle name, lol
Get engine up to full operating temperature - definitely
Blipping the throttle or yanking it around to get some of those TP% (if you are mapping a VE TPS table) I found typically produces some rather inaccurate results that come up rather different the next time you try the same thing. Pulling away gently in second gear worked really well with some of these cells and gives better numbers (I thought anyway).
Min hits of 2 I kind of disagree with. Yes it gets you a number in the table, but try the same again and you will very likely get a different result - which is accurate? It's a Statistics thing ...the Min hit count is set to make sure you get a decent no of hits to hopefully have the average negate bad samples. Autotune has, in my experience, a habit of logging weird cells, a decent sample size should help keep those to a minimum.
Tho other thing I found that didn't make sense was this idea of changing the minimum MAP to something just below idle map. Maybe this is a historical thing or relevant to more aggressive cams where your idle/cruise MAP values really do go up, if you don't log data in the higher revs, lower TP/MAP, then you are guessing and (possibly) no wonder lots have people have problems with backfiring, farts and pops on the overrun - I kept mine at 20, got some good data down there that all blended into the rest of the table and mine doesn't fart, burp or anything.
The real key to getting the lower areas nice and drivable was when I cracked CDE
By the way, just while you are reading ...you don't see any data in your logs for Acel enrichment and Decl enleanment do you?
cheers
Last edited by Gordon61; Jun 29, 2016 at 09:17 AM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 189
From: 90210
^^ Gordon- No I don't ever have logged data in AE, DE either. Seems lame not to have it but it is what it is I guess.
Thinking- do you have target tune with wideband or no? As far as accuracy I don't see any difference with min hits of 2 vs min hits of 5. I just get there quicker with 2 when first developing the tune. I've done back to back tuning on a baseline file with 2 versus 5 and they both end up very close to same.
With regards to the idle and off idle stationary tuning- that is not meant to be the final tune on those areas. it is only meant to get you a bit closer to start for your test ride, so you do not have any hesitation off idle or running excessively lean or rich at idle.
I spoke with DJ about this and they said a good hit is a good hit on VE cell regardless of the min hits setting. the VE will not change until it gets enough hits. However, a low min hits setting can get you some errant hits in areas outside of the normal VEs you tune. For example, way up in top right or way down in lower left. You may blip through a VE in one of those outside areas and a low min hits may affect a change, whereas a higher min hits would not.
But as far as accuracy of the hits, it is not affected by the min hits value setting. that is what I was told anyway - from my testing it appears to be correct but I only have the TT WB to test with- This may not apply at all to AT Pro or AT Basic.
The more we all share our specific tuning methods the better - it's a good pool of techniques and knowledge to have here
Thinking- do you have target tune with wideband or no? As far as accuracy I don't see any difference with min hits of 2 vs min hits of 5. I just get there quicker with 2 when first developing the tune. I've done back to back tuning on a baseline file with 2 versus 5 and they both end up very close to same.
With regards to the idle and off idle stationary tuning- that is not meant to be the final tune on those areas. it is only meant to get you a bit closer to start for your test ride, so you do not have any hesitation off idle or running excessively lean or rich at idle.
I spoke with DJ about this and they said a good hit is a good hit on VE cell regardless of the min hits setting. the VE will not change until it gets enough hits. However, a low min hits setting can get you some errant hits in areas outside of the normal VEs you tune. For example, way up in top right or way down in lower left. You may blip through a VE in one of those outside areas and a low min hits may affect a change, whereas a higher min hits would not.
But as far as accuracy of the hits, it is not affected by the min hits value setting. that is what I was told anyway - from my testing it appears to be correct but I only have the TT WB to test with- This may not apply at all to AT Pro or AT Basic.
The more we all share our specific tuning methods the better - it's a good pool of techniques and knowledge to have here
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Cheers once again for confirming this stuff isn't just picking on me, lol
No I'm not a TT user, and I think there are more than enough threads covering that one
I understand the statistics behind why you would want as many as possible, but, as you have found, if you have a good technique at collecting those samples then 2 good hits are probably as good as 10 good hits. Mind you, I have seen 15 hits produce the wrong number before as well. A spike one day on the edge of your cruise area one day, disappears on the next days autotune. Go figure. It pays to have a manual look through the VE tables and maybe go for another run to check a funny like that.
I've had that on both the FP3 and PV I have, hence suggesting that a good smooth handed collection technique is part of the process.
No sorry if I confused anyone, I wasn't suggesting for a minute that all you did was tune your idle, course not
I was offering that I was able to use a few launches in second gear and was able to get me some good/repeatable numbers in at least 4 if not 5 cells in the 750 and 1K RPM rows.
I obviously don't know how it works or comes to its results, but Mytune seems to take as many hits as you have in a log file (100s even 1000s) and I must admit whatever smoothing it does produces a nice smooth VE table. I personally do not believe for an instant that a single cell spike "is what the engine wants", but I'm not a pro and have only this bike to play with
Cheers
No I'm not a TT user, and I think there are more than enough threads covering that one
I understand the statistics behind why you would want as many as possible, but, as you have found, if you have a good technique at collecting those samples then 2 good hits are probably as good as 10 good hits. Mind you, I have seen 15 hits produce the wrong number before as well. A spike one day on the edge of your cruise area one day, disappears on the next days autotune. Go figure. It pays to have a manual look through the VE tables and maybe go for another run to check a funny like that.
I've had that on both the FP3 and PV I have, hence suggesting that a good smooth handed collection technique is part of the process.
No sorry if I confused anyone, I wasn't suggesting for a minute that all you did was tune your idle, course not
I was offering that I was able to use a few launches in second gear and was able to get me some good/repeatable numbers in at least 4 if not 5 cells in the 750 and 1K RPM rows.I obviously don't know how it works or comes to its results, but Mytune seems to take as many hits as you have in a log file (100s even 1000s) and I must admit whatever smoothing it does produces a nice smooth VE table. I personally do not believe for an instant that a single cell spike "is what the engine wants", but I'm not a pro and have only this bike to play with
Cheers
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
LA_Dog, the other thing I was silently thinking about in the background there was I did look at one of your early tunes when you were asking the forum about it scaling your CI.
Not sure where you got to with all that but thinking comparisons (ok so that's the other thread) ...
I haven't had to scale up my CI and my max duty cycle is just under 80% that I've seen??
Wacky world of tuning eh?
Not sure where you got to with all that but thinking comparisons (ok so that's the other thread) ...
- We both have 103 2013/14 softails on Level 358, both with 57h.
- You have V&H Big Radius and I have ProPipe 2-1 (now with std baffle)
- You have 50mm TB and 4.9, I have stock 49mm and 3.9 ...but
- I have street ported heads with 1.9/1.65 valves and yours is stock
- I have PV you have PV-TT
I haven't had to scale up my CI and my max duty cycle is just under 80% that I've seen??
Wacky world of tuning eh?
Last edited by Gordon61; Jun 29, 2016 at 03:47 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 189
From: 90210
^^ Gordon- Yes I totally follow you. I too would go hit the ride and do some launches etc to further tune the off idle areas. the initial stationary tuning is just to get close so the auto tune riding is smoother and closer to correct for idle and off idle. my tuning technique changed a lot with TT. it is just a lot faster to react and overall I've found it to be a lot more accurate and quick. Actually I'm not sure if I could really do the stationary tuning thing with AT basic because most of my AFR table is open loop anyway.
You brought up a good point on the smoothing and single cell spikes. And yes MyTune does a decent job for what it is. I have always ended up with some specific areas spiking up after a few tuning runs- This is pretty common from what I understand.
for example I have one idle VE cell that is 20 higher than all surrounding cells. I tried whacking it down, re-doing the AT session, and it would spike back up. So the engine wants more fuel in that one idle VE for both F and R. What I did was smooth surrounding VEs upward to meet the higher single VE cells so it was a better transition to adjacent cells.
For every other VE area that was spiking up significantly more than surrounding cells, I would first whack the spiked VEs down and re-run auto tune. if they popped back up, then that is what the engine wants and I will blend surrounding VEs up to it by hand. that is actually where I am at right now with my final tuning.
You brought up a good point on the smoothing and single cell spikes. And yes MyTune does a decent job for what it is. I have always ended up with some specific areas spiking up after a few tuning runs- This is pretty common from what I understand.
for example I have one idle VE cell that is 20 higher than all surrounding cells. I tried whacking it down, re-doing the AT session, and it would spike back up. So the engine wants more fuel in that one idle VE for both F and R. What I did was smooth surrounding VEs upward to meet the higher single VE cells so it was a better transition to adjacent cells.
For every other VE area that was spiking up significantly more than surrounding cells, I would first whack the spiked VEs down and re-run auto tune. if they popped back up, then that is what the engine wants and I will blend surrounding VEs up to it by hand. that is actually where I am at right now with my final tuning.
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Joe Kucinski
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 189
From: 90210
LA_Dog, the other thing I was silently thinking about in the background there was I did look at one of your early tunes when you were asking the forum about it scaling your CI.
Not sure where you got to with all that but thinking comparisons (ok so that's the other thread) ...
I haven't had to scale up my CI and my max duty cycle is just under 80% that I've seen??
Wacky world of tuning eh?
Not sure where you got to with all that but thinking comparisons (ok so that's the other thread) ...
- We both have 103 2013/14 softails on Level 358, both with 57h.
- You have V&H Big Radius and I have ProPipe 2-1 (now with std baffle)
- You have 50mm TB and 4.9, I have stock 49mm and 3.9 ...but
- I have street ported heads with 1.9/1.65 valves and yours is stock
- I have PV you have PV-TT
I haven't had to scale up my CI and my max duty cycle is just under 80% that I've seen??
Wacky world of tuning eh?
My data logs show my reported lambda is spot on tracking my AF table values so that's good.
DJ and Jamie both assured me that scaling like this a couple times is ok. I'm fairly certain that if I stayed with the stock 3.9 injectors then I would not have scaled up the CI at all.
My timing tables F/R are very good and perky without ping (Thank you Mac for the well developed timing tables!). ET's are very good even with lots of idling in town. I'm at about 32kpa hot idle and my idle timing area of spark tables is 10 degrees of advance. If you want to take a look through my tune file pm me your email address and I'll shoot it to you. It is a TT-enabled tune file but that does not matter - all the tables etc are the same as non-TT tune files. My AE,DE, warmup fuel, warmup steps, VE etc - everything related to fuel - changed a lot due to the larger injectors.
I did some work on CDE's and that greatly helped to get my idle KPA's down toward the 30 area versus staying more towards 40.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
remember that Autotune basic puts the whole Lambda/AFR table into something the narrowband can read.You brought up a good point on the smoothing and single cell spikes. And yes MyTune does a decent job for what it is. I have always ended up with some specific areas spiking up after a few tuning runs- This is pretty common from what I understand.
for example I have one idle VE cell that is 20 higher than all surrounding cells. I tried whacking it down, re-doing the AT session, and it would spike back up. So the engine wants more fuel in that one idle VE for both F and R. What I did was smooth surrounding VEs upward to meet the higher single VE cells so it was a better transition to adjacent cells.
For every other VE area that was spiking up significantly more than surrounding cells, I would first whack the spiked VEs down and re-run auto tune. if they popped back up, then that is what the engine wants and I will blend surrounding VEs up to it by hand. that is actually where I am at right now with my final tuning.
for example I have one idle VE cell that is 20 higher than all surrounding cells. I tried whacking it down, re-doing the AT session, and it would spike back up. So the engine wants more fuel in that one idle VE for both F and R. What I did was smooth surrounding VEs upward to meet the higher single VE cells so it was a better transition to adjacent cells.
For every other VE area that was spiking up significantly more than surrounding cells, I would first whack the spiked VEs down and re-run auto tune. if they popped back up, then that is what the engine wants and I will blend surrounding VEs up to it by hand. that is actually where I am at right now with my final tuning.
Just a thought to the general thinking and advice that is out there - if this is "what the engine wants" as people keep saying, why move a number of cells around an odd one by hand to something the engine presumably doesn't want, rather than adjusting the one cell?? see what I mean?
I do not believe for an instant that something as analogue as airflow through engine could possibly have such singular characteristics as that - a peak or trough-fine, a spike-no ??