running Basic Autotune for three x 30 minute sessions right up to 6000rpm would at least give you the airflow "model" of the engine, then can use the data log to build on

would be fine for a motor, your plugs come out a bit whiter than normal lol

 

LADog, I too believe the Target Tune is an exciting step forward for us PV users. I'm not sure it will trump a good Dyno. But to be able to make adaptive real time change for changes in temp, altitude, fuel sounds worth it to me.

And certainly getting VEs right isn't the end all, nor is the 14.6/4' technique a perfect solution. It still doesn't fix things like Decel pop, and reviewing log data is a great tool if you know how to use it. Many of us used logtuner for the original PVs to dial in timing, I guess it doesn't work with PV2s. AT is what it is, living within the limits of the accuracy of the stock NB sensors. Having said that I still think it is still a useful tool and worthwhile to do.

Have you heard/read any info on dates and pricing for the Target Tune product?

 

I completely agree. correct VE's are a key starting point but there are so many other variables to account for. There's really no perfect solution other than experience and tuning knowledge. The upcoming TT will surely help do a better job of setting a baseline tune, and most importantly, will allow the HD ECM to operate in full closed loop. Good dyno- well, more like a good "dyno operator". Lots of good dynos but not a lot of good operators .

Everyone's bikes are different as are the riding styles. Guys like you, Smokey and others here have been messing with PV long enough to understand what AT can do and what it can't do, and know how to make the manual necessary adjustments as well. Main issue I see for the new guys is they are expecting way too much from AT basic. They run it 30 times and think it's going to keep helping make the bike run better, often ending up with the exact opposite results. That, and the canned DJ "custom" maps for the newer ECM strategies are terrible. They are very tame, somewhat generic and I confirmed it is on purpose. Less liability to corporate by providing overlay tame "performance" maps. The HD stage1 maps are all like that as well.

The old Powercommander maps (which can still be found on the Powercommander site) are actual dyno tuned maps and much better. You can clearly see that DJ at one point put a lot more effort into supporting this product as a performance oriented tuner. I grabbed a few of these older tunes and imported to PV2 just to review the tuned VE's and spark tables.

Thank goodness FM puts forth a better effort in getting riders a more optimal starting map and addressing common stage1 issues. The only downside is, if you don't buy the PV2 from FM you are pretty much SOL unless you learn tuning on your own, or get guidance from members here. You'd think the mfr would be the ultimate support resource, unfortunately not so. The support I received ranged from bad advice to no advice.

Log Tuner can be made to work with the PV2 logs- but there is a bit of fussing involved. not bad though. However it's suggestions are not the best and it will not assist with tuning VE's that are in open loop. I found the MyTune product to be much better in making VE and spark change suggestions based off the logged data. It made change suggestions that I would have done based on manual review of the logs. things like decel pop or tuning for a cooler running motor will have the be addressed manually though.

For anyone new and not knowledgeable in tuning, if you did not buy the PV2 from FM- I'd suggest first obtaining an older powercommander tune map that matches the motor and pipes / intake, import those in WinPV, save as a PV tune file. Next, open your current tune (or any of the PV canned tunes) in WinPV. Open the saved powercommander tune as the "compare" file. Copy those VE's, AFR and spark tables from the compare file into your current tune file, save, send to PV2, and use that as the base starting stage1 tune.
From there, ride it and log the data required by MyTune, use the log data in MyTune software to get your VE and spark changes. do it until suggested changes to VE or spark are 3% or less. Works quite well.

No word I can find on an actual release data on the TT product

 

I'm at Laconia Bike Week, in NH with 200,000 of my closest friends. I may try to find the Dynojet Booth today. It might be over on the grounds of Laconia HD.

I totally agree with the "good dyno operator" that's why I trailered my bike 1200 miles last February through 600 miles of blizzard (white stuff that falls from the sky and causes car accidents and stuff) to go to Little Chute Wisconsin for my 107 build.

I'm not familiar with the Mytune software, I should check that out.

The thing that is so exciting about the Target Tuner is that it's real time. Even the best Dyno, is done at certain temps with a specific elevation and fuel. Here where I live I can go from low 40s temps to high 80s temps within the span of 6 hours. Elevation the same, sea level to 2500ft above in a couple hours into Vermont or NH.

The idea of a device that can monitor all those variables and then make subtle changes to the tune as the temp of elevation or fuel changes (fuel is always a guessing game around here) is very exciting.

Hasn't the auto industry been doing this for ages? Or are they still in the dark ages in this as well?

 

Nice! Only 200,000? You're so unsociable - LOL - Yes we do go to extra effort and lengths for our beloved Hogs don't we?

MyTune software is $30 from www.tunemyharley.com - the owner is very responsive to emails and questions, seems rather knowledgeable. I was skeptical at first, the demo version really does not let you do much so I took a gamble based on forum reviews. I've been tweaking my tunes based on logged data and at first made my own changes from reviewing logs (time consuming), versus what MyTune wanted to change (quick and pretty easy). results were about the same, so why not save some time? it supports opening multiple log files at once which is great. it will also make change suggestions to VE's even if your AFR map is 100% open loop (mine is).

Problem with LogTuner is it won't work for VE changes if open loop, and wants to make spark changes in the actual area of the recorded knock event. MyTune makes the spark change suggestions a little bit before the detected event, which is better. It also has some filtering so it ignores individual erroneous events. Plus, you can decide to only take the VE changes and see if richening up some of the VE's gets rid of the knock vs pulling the timing. lastly, on change suggestions you can copy only the cells you want instead of the entire table. For example, I may copy some of he richer suggested VE's but ignore the leaner values. I will only use the leaner suggested values if they recur in subsequent log runs.

MyTune is a bit weird to use at first because there is no native import / export for your pvt tune file. In MyTune you have to choose one of the SERT maps in the drop list that match your current bike's tune strategy level- for example, 358 on my bike. once you do that, then it loads the right cell table layouts - does not matter what is actually in those tune files since all you are doing is copying your VE and spark tables from WinPV, pasting them into MyTune, then loading your logged run, then letting it calculate the new values. after you do this one time you'll get it. it's actually pretty fast.

These are the data signals you must log for MyTunes to work, and you'll have to adjust these in the PV2's datalog signal settings - some of these are in the Advanced signal menu:

MAP
Set Lambda
RPM
ET
TP
VE New Front
Spark Knock F
Spark Knock R
VE Front
VE Rear
VE New Rear
Front CLI
Rear CLI
Front AFF
Rear AFF
IAT
Advance F
Advance R
VSS
TP Sensor
INJ PW R
Decl Enl
Set AFR
INJ PW F
KnockCntF
KnockCntR
IDC.F
IDC.R
Acel Enr


Yes- totally exciting to be able to run real time wide band and I hope they do bring the TT to market. Right now your only other "complete" real time option is to use the TwinTech ECM replacment and wideband kit. it's is really nice and 100% full featured. If I don't see the TT soon I will end up going this route.

Harley Delphi is a bit of a stripped down version of GM's Delphi. And the lack of good information on how to tune with it at an advanced level, or make use of the logged data with automated tools is astonishing. I have found my best advanced information on tuning at the GM tuner websites like hptuners.com, the Corvette tuner sites and a few others. Things like using PE tables, DE, AE and other parameters. PE functions are heavily used in automotive performance applications to provide economy and also good performance. There are a lot of missing functions in the HD application of it such as the PE vs RPM tables.
Not to mention - HD is the only one still using MAP based tuning and TP based VE's - Everyone else has moved on to using MAF sensors. So yeh the automotive industry is up to date, but HD is a bit in the stone age still. Every aftermarket automotive Delphi tuner product, even the cheap ones, have much better everything than any of the HD tuning products. Most notably, tools for the logged data. In this regard I would say that the TwinTech ECM replacement product is probably the most advanced HD tuner available - it is also an alpha-n based Delphi system instead of the HD's speed density based system. You don't gt a pretty touch screen (tablet hookup) but it will let you tune everything for any situation, and runs in real time. plus gives you access to the BLM tables. There's also the TTS Mastertune ecm replacement / wideband kit but I don't know much about it's specifics, its limitations, etc. - I will say their "TTS Mastertune Tuning Guide" PDF contains a lot of good info on basic tuning and table operations. And there's Thundermax but it does have limitations.

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/products_injection.html
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_tcfi.html <-- this entire page is a great read in general!

http://www.mastertune.net/downloads/...uide2-v200.pdf

 

LADog,
I purchased Mytune sometime last year. I couldn't find a Map in the mytune library that has the same RPM and MAP columns as my Powervision tune calibration 11T110000101. What do you do then?

Edit: I don't know if they added more Maps in mytune since I last looked or if I just didn't see them before. There are actually 4 maps Sest044sbn004, Sest044SCK002, SEST044SDF004 and SEST044SDH004 that match my powervision map.

LADOG, thanks for prodding me to look at this again. I bought MYtune to work my timeing tables as I don't seem to be able to get PV logtuner to cooperate.

 

In addition to the VE table being correct, make sure that the Spark Table matches your tune as well. I have found MyTune to be a very slick product. So much easier to use then the Log Tuner was when it had to be used.

 

Delta,
Good heads up that I hadn't considered. I just checked and all 4 of the SEST maps I referenced match both the VE and spark tables. I do have a question though. Since to use Mytune I won't have the powervision in autotune mode, but only data logging, the powervision won't be automatically retarding 4 degrees timeing so I don't have to worry about that. BUT if i'm only datalogging with the powervision the powervision also won't be setting all my AFR table to 14.6. Will the Mytune generate corrections for cells set at closed loop14.4 or cells set at less than 14.4 open loop?
Thanks,
Ken

 

I am assuming that you are talking about only the spark tables. Mytune will generate corrections for any place that it detects the need for corrections as a result of spark knock events detected. What you have to decide is if you want to incorporate the changes into you new tune. Look at the number of hits that were recorded. If you data logged for an hour and you only had 2 or 3 hits, do you have a problem? Did you hear anything? Go ahead and change your tune and try it out and compare seat of the pants. Try it out for a few days and do more datalogging. If you don't like or think that it really needs, revert back to the tune you had before making the changes. Each time you make a change make sure you edit the Tune Description under Tune Info in WinPV. It will make your life easier as you will know exactly what tune you really have.


I'm not a tuning expert and know enough to be dangerous. Performance and economy will be effected when you retard timing. How much I don't know. Some folks like timing advanced as much as possible, on the ragged edge. Then they might take 1 or 2 degrees out. I don't have the time or skill to do that. I just took my Fuel Moto spark map and let Mytune work it's magic. Is it perfect, probably not. But, I'm happy and that's what counts.


I would add that before you start playing with spark advances, determine what your fuel map is going to be. That will have an effect on timing. Remember that Mytune will only subtract, never add to your timing. When you change AFR don't forget to go back to the timing tables that were a bit more advanced and start the process over. You do not want to retard the advance too much if it really doesn't need it.


I'm sure others will add or further clarify.

 

Delta has some really good input. I take it you found the right map? I had this issue too when I first got the software- basically I didn't understand what to look for with the various files. I emailed Frank at tunemyharley.com and he was very responsive and helpful. don't know if you ever tried to contact him but he seems like a decent guy.

Mytune will suggest fuel changes on all open loop and closed loop areas. my AFR table is completely open loop. it looks at injector pulse width along with other log data to determine rich or lean areas. so there is no dependency on the o2 sensor here. I absolutely would not ever use MyTune if the logged data was captured with AT enabled. that would be useless.

I do similar to Delta- After I run my logs through MyTune, if it suggests any significant VE changes (3% or more) I will only copy the richer suggested VE values, not the suggested leaner values, and not use the suggested spark values. I will then do another logged run using only the newer richer VE's. if I see the exact same suggestion on spark timing or leaner VE I may then consider using it. Sometimes just richeing up the VE's from MyTune suggestion will take care of any errant spark knock or adjacent leaner VE.

But, it's still not a bad thing to accept all the changes if you are just starting out using it- it works quite well. Just remember to STOP tuning when any suggested changes to VE or spark are less than 3%. There is a percentage view so you can see this. you can indeed over-tune, and end up with a tame limp bike. as we all know, limp is never a good thing

Any performance tuned HD will ping a little bit. that's just what they do. I got my tune pretty well dialed in, but I can make it ping if I hit WOT from say 2800 in 3rd going uphill. but if I tune that out, the roll on performance suffers. Granted, it is not an audible ping, just a logged ping of 1.00 to 1.75 as I come up from 2800 through to 3200. not bad.

I just bought larger 4.9 injectors from HD, my puny 3.9 stock injectors are hitting 80% duty cycle most of the time when i get on it, and sometimes 100%. Also have a 30T front tri-glide pully going on, and with my newly installed 68T rear I will have a nice 3.067 overall ratio. Stock is 2.79 for the non-bagger FXS/FXD's. lame.