Power Vision Information Thread
Novice
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Langham SK Canada
I had to read, reread, and read this again. If I understand you, "use the TT developed tune in the same manner as a normal power vision map?", in this scenario a guy would to have the calibration edits made for Target Tune compatibility set back to stock if they remove the TT hardware. Full-time, dynamic closed loop fuel control utilizing wideband o2 sensors requires the Target Tune module AND a Target Tune cal. If one or the other of these are absent, then this technology will not function.
Perhaps a quick overview would help as it regards to the tools available to correct VE tables and build solid calibrations using Dynojet's Power Vision:
Tune type > Process > Hardware required
Regular Tune > Autotune Basic > no extra hardware needed, uses stock o2's
Regular Tune > Autotune Pro > need Autotune wideband controller and sensors
Regular Tune > Autotune Pro > need Target Tune wideband controller and sensors
Target Tune Tune > Autotune Target Tune > need Target Tune wideband controller and sensors
I hope I didn't muddy the water, it's hard to convey some of this stuff with all the distractions in a day.
Perhaps a quick overview would help as it regards to the tools available to correct VE tables and build solid calibrations using Dynojet's Power Vision:
Tune type > Process > Hardware required
Regular Tune > Autotune Basic > no extra hardware needed, uses stock o2's
Regular Tune > Autotune Pro > need Autotune wideband controller and sensors
Regular Tune > Autotune Pro > need Target Tune wideband controller and sensors
Target Tune Tune > Autotune Target Tune > need Target Tune wideband controller and sensors
I hope I didn't muddy the water, it's hard to convey some of this stuff with all the distractions in a day.
Thx for responding Dan! I think I understand what you're trying to tell me - target tune maps will not work without the target tune module. In other words, if the target tune module is removed from the m/c, a normal powervision map would have to be flashed before the engine can be run again. Please correct my if I have come to the wrong conclusion.
I have been using the powervision for the last couple years in all its iterations, log tuner, autotune, and now very shortly target tune. Great product and great support! Thanks!
Novice
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Langham SK Canada
As I understand it the actions taken by the Target Tune that are unique to it (Things that the Auto Tune setup with the wideband sensors cannot do) are not exportable in any fashion they are short/long term trim corrections that cannot be "downloaded" in bulk and transferred, this is a limitation apparently of the Harley ECM. When you think of the Autotune process you never really "download" the tune from the bike itself, the PV makes corrections to the tune you selected when you started the tuning session and at the end of an autotune session you reflash that tune to the bike. When you want to load what you have running currently on the bike into WinPV you load the tune from the slot you last flashed the bike with, you cannot "Get tune" from the bikes ECM itself. Correct me anyone if I am wrong here.....
Program vehicle - Load Tune - Load Copy - Load Copy of Current. At this point the powervision will display a message stating "This type of tune file is a copy of the tune that is presently in your ECM". From here you save this file to a slot and then import this into Winpv for analysis or confirmation of the tune you are actually using. The file will be titled "Copy of Current". Have done it many times on different bikes to verify which tune is actually loaded.
Cheers
Novice
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 1
From: Loysville, PA
Hey good to know! now if we could just have it download the trim values we could see what it actually does, from what I understand the TT does not change the tune so there is still no way to compare.
Actually you can get the tune from the bike's ECM. The path is as follows:
Program vehicle - Load Tune - Load Copy - Load Copy of Current. At this point the powervision will display a message stating "This type of tune file is a copy of the tune that is presently in your ECM". From here you save this file to a slot and then import this into Winpv for analysis or confirmation of the tune you are actually using. The file will be titled "Copy of Current". Have done it many times on different bikes to verify which tune is actually loaded.
Cheers
Program vehicle - Load Tune - Load Copy - Load Copy of Current. At this point the powervision will display a message stating "This type of tune file is a copy of the tune that is presently in your ECM". From here you save this file to a slot and then import this into Winpv for analysis or confirmation of the tune you are actually using. The file will be titled "Copy of Current". Have done it many times on different bikes to verify which tune is actually loaded.
Cheers
Novice
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 1
From: Loysville, PA
Well I guess they were mistaken it is new and all or I misunderstood, I just pulled the tune from the bike ECM and compared to the TT converted file that I first loaded and there is in fact changes. I have uploaded screen shots, this is after riding yesterday for about an hour mostly twisty back roads of PA, and 2 hrs today at high speed highway riding.
Last edited by xardoz; Aug 6, 2015 at 07:21 PM.
Novice
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Langham SK Canada
Well I guess they were mistaken it is new and all or I misunderstood, I just pulled the tune from the bike ECM and compared to the TT converted file that I first loaded and there is in fact changes. I have uploaded screen shots, this is after riding yesterday for about an hour mostly twisty back roads of PA, and 2 hrs today at high speed highway riding.
Is there a logging option with target tune? If so you may be able to set that parameter, log your ride, and view the AFF values via spreadsheet.
Don't have my target tune yet so don't take my comments as gospel. I'm just theorizing at the moment so take them for what they're worth!
Have you noticed any improvement in th way it runs?
Novice
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 1
From: Loysville, PA
Well that is what Jamie said you can monitor in the gauges, CLI and AFF, which I have in the Four display box gauge Front CLI Rear CLI Front AFF Rear AFF, but to be frank I am not sure what I am looking for while riding, they both seem to run someplace around 100, I have seen as low as 92 and during decel as much as say 139 on one or the other not sure but for the most part during constant say cruise control on level surfaces they are 100 or pretty close for both values front and rear....I have not tried logging them if you can over time and dumping them to a scatter plot, I might take a stab at that tomorrow since I have another 2hr ride back home to do.
Oh regarding improvement, maybe slight? Tough to tell, I had a really well dialed in tune to start with. I was thinking with this TT i might play with the lambda fuel values a bit more since now the whole field is open to running closed loop rather than being restricted to the narrow values that kept it in the narrow band range.... anyone have thoughts on what might be possible now that the whole range is fair game?
Oh regarding improvement, maybe slight? Tough to tell, I had a really well dialed in tune to start with. I was thinking with this TT i might play with the lambda fuel values a bit more since now the whole field is open to running closed loop rather than being restricted to the narrow values that kept it in the narrow band range.... anyone have thoughts on what might be possible now that the whole range is fair game?
The delta differences you're seeing are not actually being generated from target tune. You will get the same results comparing a normal pv tune to a loaded copy. Why I don't know, however the changes are so small as to be insignificant. What your post does appear to tell us is that target tune appears to be doing corrections via AFF rather than changing the VE table values.
Is there a logging option with target tune? If so you may be able to set that parameter, log your ride, and view the AFF values via spreadsheet.
Don't have my target tune yet so don't take my comments as gospel. I'm just theorizing at the moment so take them for what they're worth!
Have you noticed any improvement in th way it runs?
Is there a logging option with target tune? If so you may be able to set that parameter, log your ride, and view the AFF values via spreadsheet.
Don't have my target tune yet so don't take my comments as gospel. I'm just theorizing at the moment so take them for what they're worth!
Have you noticed any improvement in th way it runs?
Last edited by xardoz; Aug 6, 2015 at 10:00 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 67
Likes: 16
From: New Mexico
I am currently waiting on my TT to be delivered but I am curious about the autotune function of it. I have downloaded the new firmware and all new downloads and I see now that there is a TargetTune auto tune function to select when you choose the auto tune tab on the PV. Does this TT autotune function work in the same mannor as the AT pro? I figure it does not auto set he AFR to 13.1 across the board like pro instead use your current AFR table. However, does it log and correct the VE tables and then remain in the tune once you save it? That way your tune will be that much closer so your TT won't be making large swings to correct the difference between commanded and actual while being in closed loop insteadit will make refinements if needed. What about timing while your in the TT autotune? Does it make corrections/recommendations like Pro? Sorry for being long winded I'm just curious and not a lot of TT auto tune info that I've seen so far. if I am way off please excuse me.
Last edited by Colvinb; Aug 6, 2015 at 10:49 PM.
Road Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 773
Likes: 124
From: Between purgatory and retirement
xardoz;
skarcher is correct, I see these minor variations on my PV all the time.
You don't even have to start the bike to see them. Upload a map to the ECM, shut it off for the 10 seconds, then go back and load copy of current tune and compare.
I believe it is just how the ECM is rounding things ( example .980 Lambda to .981 ).
I am guessing that you are just doing logging runs and not a tuning runs??
DynoJet still has not posted the update files for the WinPV software and no manual yet for the TT. Maybe that would be able to answer at least some of the questions ( like those Colvinb is asking. )
skarcher is correct, I see these minor variations on my PV all the time.
You don't even have to start the bike to see them. Upload a map to the ECM, shut it off for the 10 seconds, then go back and load copy of current tune and compare.
I believe it is just how the ECM is rounding things ( example .980 Lambda to .981 ).
I am guessing that you are just doing logging runs and not a tuning runs??
DynoJet still has not posted the update files for the WinPV software and no manual yet for the TT. Maybe that would be able to answer at least some of the questions ( like those Colvinb is asking. )
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Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 118
Likes: 20
From: Florida
Yes that is what I meant, I already had the 02 sensors from the protune kit so just bought the upgrade. I gave some feedback to support that if there was not a design/electrical reason to make the cables from the target tune module that connect to the Stock 02 sensor connectors only 10 inches and instead something like 20in I could have maintained the location on the leftside (2010 RoadGlide) where previous module was located and would have made a much simpler swap.
I also think the leads need to be 20 inches also unless there is a problem being that long...
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 189
From: 90210
* Requires Power Vision Target Tune specific calibration
>> Where does one get this special calibration - from FM or DJ?
>> What should we use for a starting baseline tune file - or is existing tune file on bike ok?
** ECM must be "closed loop capable" and have OEM wiring for O2 sensor circuitry
>> What does this mean, specifically, for current model HD bikes? We know the WB O2's are a different physical size so will need new 18mm bungs on pipes, but what about the OE HD ECM and O2 wiring for full time operational use of WB O2 sensors?